Recession Deepens as Immigrants Flood in US

Again, I was talking about the meaning of the word freedom and your stance as a champion of freedom.

You want to curtail the freedom of immigrants, thus you can't be a champion of freedom. Very simple.

I mean, you can still say that what you defend it's the best for the well being of the USA. Ok, that's a matter of opinion.

But the fact remains that if you're against immigration you're against more freedom for individuals. So you're a enemy of freedom.

 

I do know a lot of Irish, italian and French immigrants that DO love to wave their flag around. And it seems no one even think twice about. I wonder why...?

Assimilation it's a too way street - the host culture must be willing to accept the immigrants as part of them too, otherwise they will feel left out and form ghettos.

And it's clear that assimilation was never easy here, because unless you're a WASP, you're never only an "american", you're always a "something-american."

Even when you're white, like italian-americans, irish-americans, etc.. (curious that initially they weren't considered "white" here)

This phenomenon does not happen in other countries of immigrants in the Americas like Brazil or Argentina (a third generation japanese, german, polish, etc.. in Brazil is just Brazilian, period. Likewise for the fourth generation Spanish or Italian in Argentina. Just Argentinean. No hyphen.)

A lot of my american friends with asian ascendency complain that they are never considered 100% american. Every time they tell someone they are from California, someone fires back "no, where are you REALLY from???"

That's basically what happens with immigrants from spanish speaking countries too.

The USA was so unwilling to accept them as americans that the government even created a non-existent race (Hispanics, then latinos. After a while changed to ethnicity, not race, but still treated as a "Race, by the general population) to classify then anf put then apart (creating the bizarre situation of 100% europeans like Antonio Bandeiras not being white here).

But having said that - I think you're exaggerating the situation.

Maybe in South California the thing is different, but here in San Francisco I NEVER met a Mexican that does not speak English. Never.

Weak or broken english? For sure. But 0% English? Never.

it's true that they tend to speak in Spanish when they are around other spanish speakers (not surprisingly), but they revert back to english when they need.

Should they speak English around their friends? Would that be more proof of assimilation?

More than working hard, respecting the laws, contributing to the society?

If Spanish it's so anti-american like you feel, maybe you should change the names of all cities in California - I think around 90% of them have Spanish names.

 

B4, we partially agree on this point. The language and TO AN EXTENT the culture must be assimilated by inbound immigrants. This is not happening as much as we would like. Although I do have to also agree with Hikaru that perhaps you are seeing the very worst of it.

The likely cause of lack of assimilation of Mexican immigrants is the high rate of illegals. Honestly I acknowledge this problem, they have to live in an underground culture and therefore are unlikely to assimilate. To me, the obvious solution is to make it easier to immigrate legally eliminating the need for most to come across illegally. Integration will be far easier on everyone and most of our problems with immigrants will go away eventually when we see that they CAN integrate (because you nailed the problem perfectly!). That said, a people should always be proud of their originating culture. Hypothetically if I move to Brittan someday (and like it, subsequently staying) I would imagine that I would wave both flags with pride. There's nothing wrong with that! Mexico is a friendly nation to us after all.

 

You have problems, your post was nothing more than an attack on me for saying yes immigration is ok, but they should take part in our culture. I did not ask them to come here I do not think we should foot the bill for ESL teachers. Asians were not even brought up in a negative way. One of the biggest overseas teaching industries are in Asian countries were ESL is learned before coming to the US. You have never met any Hispanics that spoke no English? That's a lie.

Dude how many 3rd Gen French in the US sport French flags? How many 3rd Gen Mexicans in the US sport Mexican flags. I'm sorry if you do not like what I say, but let’s face facts, Mexico is not doing that great, it’s their culture that promotes corruption, laziness (which is a fact, plant production of US owned plants in Mexico is 2/3 of the same plant in the US, I will dig up the GM report) that holds them back.
FYI- My mother is Dominican so I might know a little about assimilation. I never heard my grandmother once cry about problems with white people accepting her. She got out there and worked her ass off to get what she had. Still it’s nice to see how others try to blame everything on other people. Even my best friend who’s parents are from Mexico, thinks the problem is out of hand. He assimilated, his sisters did not and their kids speak broken English and live the same way they did in Mexico. He went to school and earned good grades and is now a Lt. He accepted our culture to have a better life which he did. My grandmother accepted the American culture and was a success.

 

Some good points.

 

Ow, slow down, dude.

Can we keep the conversation with out being rude? I didn't attack you nor did I called lier or whatever like you're doing.

Dude, I've being here in the USA for two years and that's my experience. How can you say I'm lying? That's my experience, period.

As I said, maybe in South California the situation is different. But that's my experience here in San Francisco. And, of course, I'm a well educated guy finishing a MFA, so of course the mexicans that I know tend to be more well educated too.

But even the ones that I have small contact (like contractors or people working in restaurants), they all answered me back in English when I talked to them.

So , yes, in my experience I NEVER met a mexican that doesn't speak English here.

As I said, weak or broken english? Very common. But 0% English? No.

 

Well, just around my neighborhood here in the Lower NobHill in SF there must be around 4 Irish pubs - all of them proudly showing the Irish flag. And I know that at least two of them are owned by irish-americans.

In front of my place there's also a fantastic Italian restaurant, owned by a italian-american. Guess what? It has italian flags around the place too.

I'm not that far from Japantown too - where in a good number of restaurants you can find - guess what - Japanese flags!

My point is, the talk about the Mexican flag as anti-american is bullshit. Why does it apply ONLY to the Mexican flag?

Well, let me clarify that I don't have any personal stake on that, before you think I do because of some kind of "latino-identity" of my part.

I'm here legally in the USA and I don't consider myself "latino" (not in the way the word is used in the USA) nor do I have much, if any contact with Mexico (or any part of the Hispanic Latin-AMerica for that matter) as I come from a different culture (brazilian are lusitanics, not hispanics), as Mexico is not even located in South-America.

But it's obvious for me that Mexicans (and the other latin-americans in a smaller degree) are being picked as scapegoats for other problems in this country.

And it's very difficult not think that there us no racism involved, because, as I said, no one complains about illegal Canadians or illegal Irish (believe or not there is a good number of illegal Irish in the USA).

 

Let's just split the country up? Let’s give Mexico Cali and see how that turns out in a few years. Dude you’re not even a US citizen, your here "legally" I'm done talking to you.

 

What o_0??? Who said anything remotely close to that, to given California to Mexico?

So, if someone is not an american citizen you don't talk with then? And then you complain that they are not assimilating?

 

Alright, here's my story. I was married for many years to someone born in Mexico. She moved to the US at the age of 15 and didn't speak English at the time. She learned English and eventually became a US citizen. I met many other Mexicans while married. In San Diego, LA, and Caliexico I've meet many, most were in the US legally but not all. Your assertions above are not true, at least from my experiences. The only people I met that was not really interested in learning English were some of the more senior people, like over 60. The stuff you wrote about the English language is just plain not true. Also the mexican flags do not mean that they are more patriotic about Mexico than the US. It is simply a statement about their heritage. The only Mexicans I've ever meet that did not consider the US their home has been migrant workers living in tents/bushes/shanty towns. Mexicans living in homes in the US generally consider the US their home. I believe that most of your assertions regarding Mexicans living in the USA are just not true, at least that is my personal experience.

 

damn irish immigrants, why can't they just be american already
YouTube - ‪The Gobshites in South Boston St. Patrick's Day Parade 2007‬‎

YouTube - ‪Chicago St Patrick's Day Parade 2010‬‎

oh, and don't get me started on the Polish
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsvWrcemJ_E#t=1m10s

/s for the sarcasm impaired

 

I just want to address the alleged lazy Mexican society thing. The Mexican people are so hard working, it's a stereotype. If their factories produce less their technology is probably inferior which is to be expected based on the relative wealth of the country, at least that's my initial assessment. I would also be very careful about stereotyping a culture based of the performance of one particular company in that area. Also, remember that if it was not doing well enough to be cost effective GM would have closed that plant.

The Mexican culture in America as I perceive it has proven deep, family oriented, and values hard work and faith. I doubt that it is any different in Mexico.

I strongly believe that an anti-immigrant position is more compelling if one nationality is not singled out. I believe, that the singling out is political spin propagated by conservative talking heads.

I think Bill and Hikaru are pretty much spot-on.

I do, however, want to thank you for your recognition of my last post, that was very nice of you. I hope this one is as good. I was also curious as to your opinion on making legal immigration easier.

 

This will be my last post in this thread. I don't think that we can get anywhere on this issue. Let’s all vote and see how that turns out. I doubt the state of the country will be any different. But let’s wait and see, the GOP will more than likely win in the fall and right now the GOP minority leader wants to end US birth rights to children of non-US parents. I doubt that will happen as it is more than likely an election ploy. The GOP had eight years to fix the problem and nothing was done. Now the Dem's have a chance and I'm sure nothing will be done ether. I love democracy but in the end it always faces the same issue. People never stick to their convictions and shift with the media. Right now I think a king looks good for the US. At least we would get stuff done without the effects of the media and special interest groups. Of course I did just watch the whole season of NBCs TV show "Kings".

Best show EVER!!!!
Kings - Full Episodes and Clips streaming online for free - Hulu

 

Wait B4, I really was hoping you would tell us if you were for making LEGAL immigration easier. Could you briefly post on that before you disappear? I just wanted to know if we had that common ground.

 

I don't know if it is that hard to become a US citizen right now. You have to meet certain requirements and if they are met you get to start the process. Thousands of people do it every year. I'm no expert so I really can't comment. Not only am I not an expert but I know nothing about the process at all.

By easier do you mean do you mean to dumb down the process?

 

I was making a joke Steve. It is a good show, I could see you watching it.

 

Well, I think the quotas are too strict so you can wait years for citizenship. I also think it's too expensive (I think Ian said 700 to file). Finally, the test is perhaps too hard. My AP Gov't teacher got a copy of an immigration test and most of our class failed. Remember, AP is higher than honors at my school, we were supposedly the best of the best. I think myself and perhaps two or three others passed. So one can infer that the vast majority of high schoolers do not know as much as your average legal immigrant. This, in my mind, is unnecessary. I think they should have to know the language and not have repeat felonies. I'm not saying I wouldn't be happy with improvements less drastic than that, but to me, that's the standard.

 

This is a strange thing - generally applicants have no trouble passing the test but many US citizens flunk it. I think the practice tests are tougher than the real tests.
judgefor yourselves - questions here:
USCIS - Naturalization Self Test