Opinions on University of Northumbria at Newcastle DL LLM program

Re: Once more with feeling

WEBSTER'S COLLEGIATE
'exam'; 'examination'
1 : the act or process of examining : the state of being examined
2 : an exercise designed to examine progress or test qualification or knowledge
3 : a formal interrogation

FIRST RULE OF HOLES
When you're in one, stop digging.

GAVIN
> By 'exams' I mean and always mean prior unsighted, closed book, 3 hour
> (or some other timed period) examination in a quiet room that is
> invigilated, the attendees identified and the usual security regulations
> applied.


LAWRIE
Well, this retrospective explanation is interesting. I have read most of your missives on the subject, and while you may prefer such kinds of testing, I cannot recall you declaring this was your customized and exclusive definition of the common word "exam". Where did you make such a clear declaration? You should have no trouble providing a cite.

Would it not be more sensible to assume others will attach to the word the common set of meanings appropriate to the context in which it is used? If you need feel you require use of a much more restricted meaning, wouldn't it be better to substitute a description that delineates your "personalized" view, clearly and unambiguously? Is it reasonable to expect readers to divine your narrow and peculiar intent from your original use of the word in this thread? I don't think it is. Isn't it the case that your derogatory characterization of the UNN LLM degree program was false and unwarranted: period? That is the truth of it, is it not?


GAVIN
> I do not consider any form of assessment as an 'exam', nor does it
> warrant you stretching the meaning I have always applied on this Board
> to mean the more general word 'examination'. Given my constant use of
> this terminology I realised from your last diatribe where this confusion
> has arisen in your mind. Mea culpa, etc.


LAWRIE
Isn't this just spin? I am not confused and it is worth noting that I am stretching nothing. You cannot reasonably expect others to understand what you mean if you do not clearly identify how it is you are restricting the use of key terms. The truth is that all of this simply serves to divert attention from the fact that you falsely accused a chartered UK university of not requiring demonstration of competencies in its LLM master's programs, is that not so?

1. Can you provide one example where you have so narrowly defined "exam", "examination", and "assessment" as you have sought to do here retrospectively, to the exclusion of all other, more general definitions of the term? I do not mean simply where you promote one method of examination over another, but where you actually provide a clear definition of the term to the express exclusion of all other definitions of the term. Where do you do that?

2. Even had you provided such a definition at some point in the past, that does not mean you need not reiterate that definition whenever you use the term in a new thread. Given it's very restrictive and unusual nature, you must do that. You did not do that. The evidence strongly suggests this inventive explanation revealed itself to you, after the fact.

3. Your position is analogous to saying, "[the] US dollar is not a unit of currency", and when such patent falsehood is challenged, saying, "uh, well, I define 'unit of currency' exclusively as the UK pound sterling (thus statement is true), and you should know that".

Fanciful, isn't it?

 

Once more into the breach...

Lawrie

You certainly know how to make a mountain out of a molehill - a characteristic I used to admire in one or two of my lawyer and advocate friends, who can turn a discussion at a dinner party into an excrutiating pain in the butt for everybody else once they get their teeth into something.

If someone made the remark that the 'US dollar is a foreign currency', one advocate in particular (a good friend but a dead ringer for Lawrie) would pounce: 'Oh no it isn't! Because to a US citizen it is a domestic currency and, therefore, for you to call it foreign is a falsehood, factually incorrect, inaccurate, prejudicial and out of order.' We used to think Nigel was joking and all have a good laugh, but over the years this has become so tedious that we realise he is sincerely serious, though he is still a pain in the butt.

The exchange between myself and Michael Lloyd was about the examination regime for a degree programme. My initial remark was that 'no exams said it all'. Michael, a graduate from the institution where I work, would know exactly what I meant by 'exams' and which I have defined many times here and elsewhere (3-hours, unsighted, closed book, no choice of questions, invigilated, Externally Examined, graded by senior faculty, one re-sit only).

The fact that Lawrie does not know I mean, and always mean, 'exams' by that definition to distinguish it from other examination regimes, of which there are plenty, particularly in distance learning (which is still stuggling to gain acceptance as more than a 'correspondence course', etc.,) is his problem not mine.

Frankly, I am uninterested in pursuing these kind of 'discussions' everytime they raise Lawrie's ire, just as I sometimes, but not always, now avoid dinner parties or other socials where I might have to sit next to Nigel (as do others, including his wife).

Lawrie, the oldest rule of civil discourse is not to flog dead horses.

 

Re: Once more into the breach...

LAWRIE
Yes, well, let's put your personally abusive rant aside and get back to the core of the issue, shall we? Unfairly demeaning a legitimate institution's academic programs is not a trivial matter. It is clear that your disparaging characterization of the UNN LLM program is false. Despite being given many opportunities to do so, you could offer no credible explanation for misleading readers. I wonder if you really believe that publicly uttering material falsehoods about a competitor's master's programs is "a molehill", for it is transparent that you have done so.

GAVIN
Lawrie, the oldest rule of civil discourse is not to flog dead horses.

LAWRIE
In fact the oldest rule in civil discourse is that you treat others with respect.


SOME USEFUL INFORMATION AND REFERENCES

1. University of Northumbria at Newcastle (UNN) - new university - London Times Universities League Table 2002 - rank 56 (for comparison, the long established Heriot Watt University - rank 48)
http://www.times-archive.co.uk/onlinespecials/education/main2002.html

2. The UNN LLM by distance learning, is earned over two years. There is an optional week-long seminar at the beginning of year one held at the university. Cost of this is included in the program fees should you wish to attend.

3. LLMs offered by distance learning (entry to those marked * requires undergraduate law degree or equivalent experience):
LLM Advanced Legal Practice*
LLM Advanced Property Law*
LLM Commercial Law
LLM International Trade Law
LLM Mental Health Law
LLM EU Law
LLM Medical Law

4. Exam assessment comprises six 4,000 word research papers and a 16,000-20,000 word dissertation. My impression (hands-on experience) is that examination of competencies is rigorous. I do not think it possible to successfully complete this program without thorough understanding of underlying concepts and the close detail of the individual subjects under scrutiny.

5. Total cost, complete program including books and (very important) access to premium research resources: under $5,000.

6. "The University of Northumbria is one of the largest Universities in the U.K. offering over 400 study programmes to over 21,000 students. Its four campuses offer a range of lifestyles, from the bustle of a major city center . . ."
http://home.kimo.com.tw/beckyweng1014/abc.htm

7. UNN - "Best New University in league tables published by The Sunday Times (1998, 1999 & 2000) and by The Daily Telegraph (1999 & 2000). These league tables are based on a range of factors including the quality of teaching, student support and facilities. The Times, in its 2000 League Tables, also lists Northumbria as one of Britain's "top-rated institutions" in no less than 16 subject "
http://www.edu.net.my/news/newsdetail.asp?InstitutionID=261&NewsID=71

8. For links to LLM offerings and forthcoming detailed program review, see my web site at:
http://www.geocities.com/ba_in_4_weeks/mastermenu.html


Lawrie Miller
BA in 4 Weeks
http://geocities.com/ba_in_4_weeks