One in ten college graduates in New York State...

simon · Dec 18, 2005

Re: New York Post Article

Originally posted by **********
Hello everyone,

I believe the article mentioned "statewide"

It's unfair to single out New York City Public Schools and the CUNY system. The state of New York also has the SUNY system and quite a number of private institutions including: Columbia, Cornell, New York University, Fordham, and so on.

Peace!
Maria
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Good point! The SUNY system and other private universities are also included in this survey.

However, New York City for many years was the epicenter of social promotion resulting in countless numbers of students graduating from public schools and university systems such as CUNY without the concommitant academic skills.

simon · Dec 18, 2005

Originally posted by rackwin
Well I'm a senior at Fordham University and i can vouch that some ,or an arbitrary amount, of my classmates have no written command of standard english. And these are rich, Catholic and white students - so much about this talk of the public education system.
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However the NYC public education system was overwhelmingly culpable of promoting students who were academically not up to par and allowing them to graduate. I believe that this is gradually turning around resulting in significantly more students who are up to academic standards.

simon · Dec 18, 2005

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: One in ten college graduates in New York State...

Originally posted by Jack Tracey

I hope you are well and that in the future you can post in a more friendly, helpful manner.
Jack
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I am feeling very well, thank you. Simon

simon · Dec 18, 2005

Originally posted by CoachTurner
You know, I saw this last night on cnn or fox or something and considered:

Based on my own observations -- I do not believe that 1:10 college grads anywhere are unable to understand what they read in a newspaper (provided the article to be read is presented in the correct language and at an appropriate level). I propose that 1) the study referenced is faulted 2) the study referenced has been misinterpreted.

That's just my opinion though.

SIMON: I respect your opinion however based on my experiences I disagree.

As an example, I have recently participated in online doctoral courserooms and the academic level of significant numbers of DOCTORAL"learners" (I am not speaking about college graduates but advanced doctoral level students) in these courses were significantly below the standards of undergraduate students.

I would say that at least three quarters of the students in this course were unable to compose a coherent sentence. After being criticized by the online instructor, suddenly these students writting skills improved inordinately. This raised the suspicion that these students were being assisted by others. When I broached my disappointment with the instructor (for $4,000 a course and not receiving any worthwhile feedack from these "learners" I was quite miffed) I was told to ignore these students and just focus on my work. RIGHT! Quite frankly these doctoral "learners" were not on par with high school students with whom I graduated. In addition, I have supervised many graduate level students including some from an Ivy League school and found a significant percentage of them would have never made the grade had they been in graduate school during the sixties or seventies.

COACHTURNER:I've begun to not believe at all much of what I'm being told in the media.

SIMON: I agree. Even the New York Times which at one point was considered one of the most reliable sources of news in the US was under fire for distorting or not reporting the news accurately or skewing it to meet their political agenda.

COACHTURNER: By the way, there aren't any jobs out there for master's degree holders so we're all going to end up working for minimum wage at McDonalds...

SIMON: This is an age old problem in social services but does not prevent universities from discontinuing these degree programs.
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DesElms · Dec 18, 2005

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: One in ten college graduates in New York State...

Originally posted by Jack Tracey
There has been some covert discussion recently suggesting that Gregg and I are actually one and the same person. My own efforts have traced this rumor back to the Illuminatti but...
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Shhh! The less said about that, the better.

miguelstefan · Dec 18, 2005

That is probably because there is not much in the New York Post worth reading.

tesch · Dec 18, 2005

Originally posted by simon

Originally posted by CoachTurner
You know, I saw this last night on cnn or fox or something and considered:

Based on my own observations -- I do not believe that 1:10 college grads anywhere are unable to understand what they read in a newspaper (provided the article to be read is presented in the correct language and at an appropriate level). I propose that 1) the study referenced is faulted 2) the study referenced has been misinterpreted.

That's just my opinion though.

SIMON: I respect your opinion however based on my experiences I disagree.

As an example, I have recently participated in online doctoral courserooms and the academic level of significant numbers of DOCTORAL"learners" (I am not speaking about college graduates but advanced doctoral level students) in these courses were significantly below the standards of undergraduate students.

I would say that at least three quarters of the students in this course were unable to compose a coherent sentence. After being criticized by the online instructor, suddenly these students writting skills improved inordinately. This raised the suspicion that these students were being assisted by others. When I broached my disappointment with the instructor (for $4,000 a course and not receiving any worthwhile feedack from these "learners" I was quite miffed) I was told to ignore these students and just focus on my work. RIGHT! Quite frankly these doctoral "learners" were not on par with high school students with whom I graduated. In addition, I have supervised many graduate level students including some from an Ivy League school and found a significant percentage of them would have never made the grade had they been in graduate school during the sixties or seventies.
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Simon,

Can you share with us exactly what school and course/s are you referencing from your personal experience? Additionally, what is your background including such things as your academic, professional, scholarly research experience and credentials that you draw from?

I struggle to evaluate much of what you offer and project as judgment and or expert opinion without knowing anything about the exact school/s, programs, situations, and context that you reference. I am also curious as to how your background, credentials and experience might influence such observations and subsequent conclusions/judgments. I do appreciate that you have formed an opion and I'm not trying to be terse here; however, I am trying to understand the source of your perspective.

Interestingly, my observations are completely counter to your observations and the conclusions that you share. For the past 15 years I’ve worked extensively in NYC as an executive program manager and technology system consultant for major firms such as AT&T, Merrill Lynch, Standard and Poor, Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan/Chase, Solomon Smith Barney, Citigroup, and BankOne to name a few. I've also worked closely with perhaps several hundred graduates from various New York colleges and universities at these firms. With the exception of just a few, I have found them to be very intelligent, articulate and competent professionals with good technical, management and associated reading and writing skills.

As a professor, I have worked extensively with many undergraduate and graduate students from New York colleges and universities. A handful may have experienced some difficultly with English as a second language, but each student had continuously improved his or her skills and demonstrated solid scholarly and professional writing abilities. I've also served on several doctoral dissertation committees of students from New York area colleges and universities; in fact, I serve on two of them at this time. Candidly, not one of one of these doctoral students has demonstrated anything less than excellent reading comprehension and writing skills. Likewise, my current and past interactions and experience working with approximately 20 to 30 faculty and peers from NYC area universities clearly demonstrate that each of them possess excellent reading, writing and research skills.

Therefore, my direct observations and experience working extensively with students, graduates and professor from New York areas universities (public and private) suggest that less than a few percent, or fraction thereof, demonstrate inadequate reading or writing skills. Clearly, nothing that is consistent with Simon’s reported observations and conclusions. Perhaps the difference is related to our associated contexts, schools, programs, or the company that we keep.

I have to agree with CoachTurner’s view of the article and DesElm’s assessment of what the New York Post publishes.

Tom
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simon · Dec 18, 2005

Originally posted by tesch

TESCH: Can you share with us exactly what school and course/s are you referencing from your personal experience? Additionally, what is your background including such things as your academic, professional, scholarly research experience and credentials that you draw from?

SIMON: I would gladly comply with your request if it wasn't for an unfortunate situation I observed on this forum several years ago. A poster, I believe his name was COX, became embroiled in an argument with one or two other posters regarding his non RA degree program. In turn one of these posters contacted COX's state licensing board and discussed this posters eligibility for licensure based on his non RA degree doctoral program. Personally, I felt such action was grossly inappropriate and totally uncalled for no matter how vehement a debate may become. However, it reinforced the necessity to safeguard one's identity, especially within the context of an anonymous cyber-forum due to the possibility of such a situation reoccuring.

TESCH:I struggle to evaluate much of what you offer and project as judgment and or expert opinion without knowing anything about the exact school/s, programs, situations, and context that you reference. I am also curious as to how your background, credentials and experience might influence such observations and subsequent conclusions/judgments. I do appreciate that you have formed an opion and I'm not trying to be terse here; however, I am trying to understand the source of your perspective.

SIMON: If it is that important to you I will be willing to speak with you in confidence on the phone, an offer I previously made to Jack Tracy.

TESCH: Interestingly, my observations are completely counter to your observations and the conclusions that you share. For the past 15 years I’ve worked extensively in NYC as an executive program manager and technology system consultant for major firms such as AT&T, Merrill Lynch, Standard and Poor, Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan/Chase, Solomon Smith Barney, Citigroup, and BankOne to name a few. I've also worked closely with perhaps several hundred graduates from various New York colleges and universities at these firms. With the exception of just a few, I have found them to be very intelligent, articulate and competent professionals with good technical, management and associated reading and writing skills.

SIMON: Our work experiences and work contexts are very different which may explain why we have such disparate perspectives.

TESCH: As a professor, I have worked extensively with many undergraduate and graduate students from New York colleges and universities. A handful may have experienced some difficultly with English as a second language, but each student had continuously improved his or her skills and demonstrated solid scholarly and professional writing abilities. I've also served on several doctoral dissertation committees of students from New York area colleges and universities; in fact, I serve on two of them at this time. Candidly, not one of one of these doctoral students has demonstrated anything less than excellent reading comprehension and writing skills. Likewise, my current and past interactions and experience working with approximately 20 to 30 faculty and peers from NYC area universities clearly demonstrate that each of them possess excellent reading, writing and research skills.

SIMON: Yes, but we have to be careful about comparing our experiences due to the fact that your profession APPEARS to be technologically oriented and may be attracting a certain student segment with higher levels of math and verbal aptitudes than the students I have worked with. So it is unclear whether your experiences actually negates my perceptions.

TESCH: Therefore, my direct observations and experience working extensively with students, graduates and professor from New York areas universities (public and private) suggest that less than a few percent, or fraction thereof, demonstrate inadequate reading or writing skills. Clearly, nothing that is consistent with Simon’s reported observations and conclusions. Perhaps the difference is related to our associated contexts, schools, programs, or the company that we keep.

SIMON: I believe so.

TESCH: I have to agree with CoachTurner’s view of the article and DesElm’s assessment of what the New York Post publishes.

SIMON: In fact it is not what the New York Post or any other newspaper publishes but whether the information provided can be corrobrated. For example, I spoke briefly in another post about the New York Times and the myriad charges placed against this "stalwart"of the news media engaging in intentional skewing of the news as well as some of their reporters writing news stories that could not be substantiated and were consequently discredited.

SIMON
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