Non-US Doctoral Programs in Business - Success?

We've heard a lot in this forum about various non-US options for doctoral study in business. These include schools in South Africa, UK, Australia, and France. Some of these schools are AACSB accredited.

Periodically, I'm asked about doctoral programs in business. I have some experience with the major US options. I'm cautious about suggesting the non-US schools, however, only because I haven't talked with anyone that has successfully completed such a degree.

Are there any graduates of doctoral programs in business outside the US on this forum? What experiences have people had with such programs - particularly in terms of degree completion?

My observation of the US DL programs such as NSU (and others) is that one can complete the program as long as you are willing to keep working (and paying) at it. At NSU the mean time to complete the program is about 5 years or so. Relatively few students are kicked out of the program. Those that leave choose to leave.

I'm really curious about the non-US programs. What experiences have people had with them? Are they selective on the admission side? Do they tend to flunk out a fair number of students? How long do these programs typically take to complete?

Regards - Andy

 

I'm interested in learning more about the AACSB non-US programs too. Didn't Han, who posts on this board, complete a doctoral degree through Grenoble?

 

Key point - we've heard about various folks working on non-US degrees - but I'm trying to figure out if anyone has actually finished one.

Regards - Andy

 

http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?t=26706

 

ok - we have one

Ok - we have one. It sounds like Han's route was tougher than he expected, but he did get through.

Any other observations?

Regards - Andy

 

"Following this definition we find that by 2000-01, after five years, 57 per cent of PhD students who began their studies on a full-time course, and 19 per cent starting on a part-time course had completed. By 2002-03, after seven years, the completion rates were 71 per cent and 34 per cent for full-time and part-time starters respectively."

- Higher Education Funding Council for England

http://www.hefce.ac.uk/pubs/hefce/2005/05_02/

Based on the HFECE the rates of PhD completion (this includes all research doctorates, including EdD and EngD) the completion rate is 71% for FT and 34% for part-time researchers AFTER 7 YEARS.

Based on hearsay, this conforms to the typical completion rate for most European doctorates. Since many of them are based on pure research, it can be a long and lonely process, regardless if one is an internal or external researcher.

 

Just one thing to consider; don’t forget to consider what you will actually learn. We sometimes get so hung up on the degree as a credential, we forget that most people get degrees so we can learn stuff.

To that end, a business degree is a finicky little animal; it needs to be timely, relevant, and of enough quality for you to get what you need out of it. A business degree from another county is not the same thing as a degree in international business. Just make sure that the course content is relevant to the country you are actually doing business in. For example learning about South African labor laws may be tremendously interesting; but if you have to deal with US labor laws it may not be tremendously helpful. On the other hand if you seek a business school in say France because you specifically need to understand French Labor Unions and their implications, then a business education from that country may be helpful.

I personally in my daily job deal with about 14 different countries; currency, labor issues, technology, cultures, you name it. However, since most of what I deal with is in the domestic US, I found a business school who’s courses focused on, well, domestic US business.

Interestingly, when I took the Tulane Advanced MBA Certificate (they have sense changed the name twice), there was a section called “International Business”. I found it very interesting, and relevant given my current job; but it did not persuade me to look outside my country for a degree.

 

Well, since I was a topic of conversation, I will put in my 2 cents.

Regarding the admissions process, it seems that the process is much different between the two. For example, the US programs I looked at stated that they accept 1, maybe 2 students per year (B&M on ground campuses). In this, they make sure that they are super selective in the process and the person WILL get through. It seems from the several programs I looked at in Europe, that this is not the case there. It seems that through the discussions I had at those Universities, they accept more, let us say 20, but through the process will reduce, based on several factors. These factors can include things like quality of work to situations within the student’s lives. For example, Henley’s Dean I spoke to in length, they can and will accept more students, knowing that they will only have a few get through in the end. I truly believe that the models are different, but in the end, the results are the same.

In the US models of the students I know, they have no panels reviewing their work along the way, but are integrated throughout – the big gate is getting admitted. In the European model, there are “gates” throughout, where – even with “going through the motions” and writing up your work, quality wise, you may not make it through.

Which is harder to get through? I think they are about equal – as the end result is the same, only a few a year, maybe 1-2? I could be wrong, but that is what I have seen with the schools I have spoken to and the students I know in the several programs out there.

BTW - Nothing can prepare you for the amount of work and the quality of work that is needed.

 

Interesting discussion

Han, thank you for your comments.

Can you tell me where Grenoble's seminars are held? I looked online but couldn't tell where...although it appears that they may be different year-to-year.

Thanks.

 

It depends, and I am really not sure these days. My year, the cohort was all from New Orleans (except for a few of us), so they were held there, but this was pre-Katrina (my cohort, Katrina was smack dab in the middle of it), so we lost lots of students and they began meeting elsewhere.

I am not sure how they are doing it now, but they usually pick a site located convienently to most students. I think a co-hort is 16 or more form one city and they met there, but you could e-mail them and see how they are doing it these days.

 

When I looked into the Grenoble program (about 2 months ago), there were 2 week-long seminars at Grenoble and 5 to 6 shorter seminars over the course of a summer (1 seminar per month) that were to be held on campus at the University of Mississippi.

 

Here's the official response from Grenoble about the seminars + tuition, etc:

 

Thanks Eric.

Thanks for the info.

I'm really just "armchair shopping', as I still have a few years before I start. I have a 14 yo and a 16 yo and will wait until the younger has graduated HS and is ready for university. So my projected start date is summer 2011. I like planning and I hate waiting but have enough on my plate, what with a full-time banking job, part-time teaching and raising the kids. My top choices now are Grenoble, Henley or Aston followed by Athabasca and Nova. I definitely want something with residencies and would prefer AACSB. And I need to determine my research focus, so that will take some time and work too that I can do while I wait.

 

Great minds must think alike - these were my top 3.......

 

Grenoble, Henley and Aston are top European schools. A degree for either one of these is quite an accomplishment. All three are well regarded internationally.

 

Thanks for your response - this gets at what I started this thread for. From what's been said, many US B&M and European schools are selective - either on entry or exit. The US DL programs appear to be different - they tend not to be very selective on entry and handle attrition through students' endurance.

This is important information for potential students. For example, if a college teacher with a MS is looking for a doctorate to advance their career, they may choose the DL route based on the probability of success.

The European route appears attractive on one level - they offer high quality doctoral programs from AACSB schools. On the other hand based on comments here - these are very difficult programs with a significant chance (over 50%?) of not graduating.

Regards - Andy

 

Did you mean to say above "European DL" You said "US DL" above - which I do not know of any that fit the AACSB criteria, so do not think any exist (I may be wrong).

I think 50% is too high - and I do think it is a good thread for discussion.

 

I guess the choices are US B&M (mostly all AACSB), European DL (short residency like Grenoble and the others you mentioned - some of which are AACSB) and US DL (some are short residency, some are on-line, but none are AACSB).

Regards - Andy

 

I think you're right. It's probably realistically closer to 20%.

 

Here's the graduation rates at one respected school:

http://www.colorado.edu/pba/degrees/grtbl947d.htm

They average a 57% graduation rate which translates to a 43% dropout rate. I believe that these rates are typical, howver note the variation across disciplines.