Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by Guest, Sep 13, 2004.

  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Campolo is all right but I prefer Max Lucado, Lloyd Ogilvie, and Forest Church as far as spiritual writings go.
  2. Tom57

    Tom57 Member

    Yikes, mrw. Is the Holacaust a fiction too? I will point you to a website that discusses, rationally and intelligently, some recent books about the poor in this country:

    Here is an excerpt from one of the books (via the site):

    "Moving in and out of jobs that demand much and pay little, many people tread just above the official poverty line, dangerously close to the edge of destitution. An inconvenience to an affluent family -- minor car trouble, a brief illness, disrupted child care -- is a crisis to them, for it can threaten their ability to stay employed. They spend everything and save nothing. They are always behind on their bills... Even when the economy is robust, many wander through a borderland of struggle, never getting very far from where they started. When the economy weakens, they slip back towards the precipice."

    The poverty line for a family of 3 is about $15,000. That statistics are undeniable that more and more people are slipping close to, and below, the poverty line. Here in the Bay Area, an average 2 bedroom apartment in a bad neighborhood will cost you at least $1,200 per month. There goes your $15,000. So you got the shelter covered. Food, that's another matter. Clothing, another matter still. Medical care. Oh yeah, I forgot, don't have any insurance.

    Yes, there are people ripping off the system. Yes, you no doubt can find some people on welfare living better than you do and laughing all the way to the bank. However, I don't see how you can honestyly assert that they are the clear majority. That's just denial, plain and simple.

    As for those I know. When I was teaching math in an inner-city high school, I had lots of students who matched the "stereotype." They came from broken homes. Many were in foster care. I have to assume that many didn't get enough to eat, as they would fall asleep in class (I wasn't that boring). Breakfast, if there was any, consisted of barbecue potato chips and Pepsi. Almost all of them failed. No surprise there. Sad story, and a true story.
  3. mrw142

    mrw142 New Member

    Actually, Tom, the Holacaust is a fiction--but the HOLOCAUST actually happened--spell check, my boy!

    The comparison between the two is illustrative--the Holocaust is a simple fact: 6 million Jews, Christians and political dissidents were exterminated by the Nazis. As for the hungry or starving in America, that is anything but a simple fact. You point me to a handful of leftward books, cite the poverty line--which is itself a purely political tool and does not include government aid programs which have eliminated starvation in this country for all but those who refuse to avail themselves of them--but for your personal evidence that I asked you to cite, all you can give me is some kids slept through your Math class and failed? I slept through classes and failed, I lived at or near the poverty line at times, and I've not known hunger (I know, my experience is anectdotal). Overall, though, that's weak if all you have is vague supposition and inference. Did any of your kids in class starve?--or did they just eat potato chips and drink Pepsi because that's what mom and dad bought? Nutritious food is often less expensive that chips and soda, it's not the fault of the government, with free school lunch programs, WIC, welfare, an economy where virtually all who want work will find it eventually, that some parents are foolishly feeding their children on that.

    Have you ever heard of a single person in the U.S. dying from starvation because there was no safety net for them? Living near the poverty line entitles one in America--without cheating--to numerous federal programs that ensure they won't starve. Our poverty liners live affluently vis-a-vis many hard working people in countires around the world. I had a close friend in grad school who grew up in Hyderabad, India, who had grown up knowing true poverty and real near-starvation--he scoffed at the American poor and talk of true hunger.

    Tom, I know a bit about the poverty line. My parents were high school dropouts, I am the first in my family to graduate from high school, the only one in my family to date to receive a four year college degree--and that's to the second cousin. I lived in a trailer house a good chunk of my formative years. I know the poverty line, because I've lived under it before. Have you?
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 27, 2004

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