Mr. Contreras - This is what you should be fighting!!!!

My dear Nelson:
I was commenting on Bullet's post about nations in civil war. While I tend to take a positive view of state-approved status (California ONLY) and genuine (NOT Liberian) foreign accreditation, I cannot agree with your claim that Alan Contreras doesn't do his research. I have observed his posts here and spoken to him personally. While I might dispute the inclusion of this or that isolated school on the ODA list, I do not dispute his diligence and general accuracy. There are various kinds of degree mills. Not all of them are as utterly transparent as the old familiars you cite, which (sadly) do not exhaust the category.
Best wishes to you in any case, Janko

 

Hi Ernie

Please call me Dave.

We will certainly have to agree to disagree. I've followed The ODA and Alan's work and can see they are doing an excellent job. Both the process and intention are exactly where they should be. I too love it when government gets it right and it is clear the ODA does.

Most schools don't wind up on the ODA's degree mill list over night. It happens over years while they ignore the standards and progress everyone expects of the least rigorious schools. Accreditation is basic quality assurance that every school should look for as soon as possible. It is understandable that not all achieve it within a few years, but those that have been around 20 or 30 years and have yet to achieve such basic standards are obviously suspect.

Like you I follow the K-W lawsuit and think it is likely to support the ODA. At the very least it will be interesting to see the outcome.

I definately wish you well, but am glad the government is looking at reigning in obvious degree mills and extremely sub-standard schools. It is the kind of basic consumer protection I expect of them.

 

Re: so are we all snakes.

Hi Bullet

I think if you look at the countries you mention you will find much worse things that have happened during their civil wars. While I value education greatly, I do not put it on par with the killing of innocent civilians and other such atrocities.

Under the previous regime, it is pretty clear they did have the correct politicians in their pocket because there was no out cry and denial. At this point, the country is going through a dramatic shift and, while education is important, it probably doesn't compare with achieving very basic humans needs such as food water, medical attention, etc.

If you have evidence that St. Regis did not have government approval could you please post it? I am sure many people here would be interested in this new info.

Thanks and take care.

 

Re: Thank you to all who UNDERSTAND what I am saying

Hi JNelson

What about California State approved schools that tell potential students how to cheat on tests as an enticement to purchase a degree? Would that be merely substandard or a degree mill? How many different levels should the ODA use? If they have evidence a State approved school is a degree mill shouldn't they pass that indication on to the public?

 

Re: Re: Thank you to all who UNDERSTAND what I am saying

Hello Dave,

To answer your question, I would have to re-iterate that a California State approved cannot be issued, awarded or earned within 1 academic year. That, in my opinion, would be a deterrant from wanting to pursue a degree QUICKLY simply becasue you could visit one of the fine institutions in my email I pasted above and order one..without waiting for 1 year after enrollment.

As far as a California university sharing how to cheat so they can purchase a degree... They must be GREAT sales people because again, they would have to also inform that they cannot be awarded a degree within 1 academic year.

Do you have experience with a CA approved university doing this cheating advise?

To summarize my disapointment at how the ODA lists schools, I DO BELIEVE THE ODA HAS GOOD INTENTIONS. And YES, I do feel that if our NATIONAL government could step in ( since accreditation is a voluntary process ), and REQUIRE ALL schools to be Federally mandated to meet accreditation, then there would never be any of this to discuss.

AGAIN, and I will repeat my feelings...I do feel that if our NATIONAL government could step in ( since accreditation is a voluntary process), and REQUIRE ALL schools to be Federally mandated to meet accreditation, then there would never be any of this to discuss. And there would be non of these successful degree mills out there.

 

no evidence just thinking out loud

Mr. Dave,


Thank you for your letter. I totally and 100% agree with you about the order of necesities.

This is why I was comparing the civil wars of the americas with the one in Liberia. But still as far as I know no one was selling Education Permits in the Americas, even though there was civil war all over the place until Oscar Arias negociated the ESQUIPULAS II treaty. What I was trying to tell the gentleman was that civil war was not an exuse to sell out the education of a country. $50 thousand american dollars a year is very nice amount of money indeed, but after the news hit the mainstream media....................someone must be running for cover (or at least should be).

Let me share some boring information, the entire reason I became interested in distance education was because of the University of Phoenix online. After looking into this most wonderful system of education, I came across the St. Regis University. I read where the St. Regis school was licensed with the Government of Liberia and the price was more affordable than UOP.

Imagine if not for news on the internet is the first time I see that the school is a Degree Mill. Well I thought to myself, no this cannot be. It must be some type of defamation because they are cheaper than american universities.

It takes more than a chat room to convince me that a Government would recognize a school; and that school can be a Diploma Mill.

But the person that posted this link to buy better grades and to check off the Degree you want, this is horrible. Now I am convinced that indeed the actions of St Regis University is not of a professional operation.

This is why I prefer to consider the angle that probably St. Regis is not a licensed university by the Liberian Government. I have no proof of this, it just seems to make more sense to me than to think that a Government would let a University operate in this fashion with out a full investigation and at least a WARNING to stop this practice.

I do believe that any University that has problems can work them out.

I cannot believe that a Government for $50 thousand would allow so much damage for such a small sum of money. You would practically need everyone in Government to be involved and $50 thousand american dollars is alot, but to buy a whole government? I think not, with or without civil war.

How about now? What would the excuse be to continue allowing St Regis to do this practice? The civil war is over and Charles Taylor is gone. I suppose the majority of his henchmen are gone as well.

I guess that the entire, "we are turning a new page" was nothing after all.

In the end it really does not matter, there is not one soul on these boards that would sign with St Regis.

Maybe God send us St Regis to have something to write about?

 

Yes, the only solution is that if the States of the US can co-operate and ensure a better standard of higher education.

Perhaps the States could start by insisting that all new universities must submit a business plan, a substantial deposit and evidence of a credible academic institution, plus the requirement that it must apply for accreditation within 3 years. Failing to do so will mean the forfeiture of the deposit and delisting. Also the word 'university' should be protected by corporate affairs office.

This would go a long way stamping out degree mills and sub-standard schools.

Those of us who have done a course at an unaccredited school and a RA school (or equivalent) know that the standards are substantially different.

 

Re: Re: Re: Thank you to all who UNDERSTAND what I am saying

The way the Australian government dealt with Greenwich provides a good example of how to get rid of a sub-standard institution (although another Greenwich could never arise in the Australian scene again, due to changes in legislation!)

Greenwich was extensively reviewed, then given time to make changes to overcome deficiencies, which it didn't, then it was legislated out of existence.

The point is; proper national education standards can be guaranteed by appropriate government processes at a national level.

 

What the state of Oregon has done is put the onus on schools to prove that they are legitimate colleges. For a very small fee, schools can be evaluated by the Oregon Office of Degree Authorization. A number of schools have done so and now are listed differently on the Oregon website.

There is no excuse for not submitting to the evaluation process *unless* you cannot pass. It's doubtful that most of these schools could.


Tom Nixon

 

This is a fair enough process that Oregon have instituted, as far as it goes.

However, it still doesn't address what is probably a national problem; that the US is inflicted with 3 types of unaccredited schools:

1. the diploma mill - money for nothing!

2. the minimal- instruction schools - money for something, but very little!

3. the instruction schools, whose degrees provide little utility but a lot of misleading and misconception.

Better than all unaccredited schools be outlawed, and that those that currently exist have a limited life span until they either seek accreditation or be struck out by government legislation (see my earlier post).

 

Thank you to all of those who have responded on this forum

I have enjoyed reading these discussions and I do hope that I am not seeming to be out of line. I would have to say that I may have struck Mr. Contreras the wrong way. Wasn't intentional.

Oregon does list certain State schools on their list, although, I would prefer to see them listed as State Approved in " _______ " but does not meet ODA's requirements would be a much better wording.

If I recall correctly, doesnt a NA RA accredition standard require that a school have a certain minimal amount of available financial resources or cash flow per # of enrolled students? maybe a few smaller and less expensive State approved schools may not have that available to them which would require them to be unable to meet the criteria for DETC, or one of the 6 regionals. Just a possibility to think about.

Nevertheless, thank you for reading this topic and if you did not review the attached EMAIL I pasted at the top on three schools from a known PLA evaluator...I love the Check out and pricing... Looks kind of like a restaurant menu you think? I'll have the Doctoral degree with a 4.00 GPA a la carte. Please check it our. the proof is in the pudding. Now THAT's a DEGREE MILL.

Cheerio

 

Re: Re: Re: Thank you to all who UNDERSTAND what I am saying

Hi JN

So you never answered my question of your opinion of California approved schools where the school lets perspective students know they have no problem with them cheating. I would be glad to share the name with you as soon as you tell me if you would consider such a school a degree mill? If you do a little research on this forum you will find there are some very fine state approved schools and others that are clear degree mills. Unfortunate the state approved schools tend to be either substandard or degree mills with a few gems in there. Why take 40 classes to get a B.A. when a mere 5 will do?!

 

Re: no evidence just thinking out loud

Ok...

So from your post, it is a belief not a fact based opinion. It is important to seperate the two. Beliefs are fine. but not the same as facts.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Thank you to all who UNDERSTAND what I am saying

Hi Adamsmith

Federal government control of education is certainly one option. It would certainly lessen, but not eliminate the degree mill problem. It would also limit innovation and options. It is unlikely to happen simply because Americans are cautious of government control of anything. We also have lived this far without it. If we had a few more states take their jobs seriously like Oregon, there would be little need for extensive Federal oversight.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Thank you to all who UNDERSTAND what I am saying

Hello Dave... Your right...I guess I did not answer your question. I do know that there are some extremely substandard or " yes, why not, let's call them degree mills " that may have State Approval and offer a BS for just a few classes to complete. I would be happy to also share back with you those that do that I have direct experience with and one that has made me work my tale off and required more from me than TESC. Of course that school is seeking DETC ' Thank GOD..

Nevertheless, yes I would say that it is a degree mill and the State that approved it should pull its approval away. Now there is several types of State approval that can be for 2-5 years. I would imagine that it is a newby and not one of the " GEMS " that you are referring to that has probably held State approval for years.

Example: Ashington university - State approval in Louisiana. Requires coursework of I believe 7-8 courses for Exec. MBA. Initial State approval for 2 years and due to be re-evaluated early next year. Degree Mill.? I don't know. Hard to speculate. BSed on their affiliation with Trinity College & University - Yes.. A degree mill with a loop hole.

again to answer your question. I will happily say that you are RIGHT...State Approved Schools could be a " Degree Mill " class. They just haven't been caught yet or up for re-evaluation.

Let me re=phrase though. We do know the "Gems" that for some ungodly reason have chosen not to seek accreditation. And I speculated on the possibility of not ahving enought Financial resources to meet requirements as a possibility.

Then again, Some State approved schools that have skipped out of 1 to 2 states to avoid being shut down are also a example of why we have this ongoing discussion. This may be the detriment and I cannot wait to hear the Oregon outcome on KW. This may put things for all of us into perspective.

I again fell that to solve this problem would take a act of Congress and require ALL universities to meet a national approval. this would cause even the good Staet-Approved schools to either close or adapt. But it cannot be voluntary and must be unbiased to all schools regardless of size or financial restraints.

This is neverending...

 

I have GOT to learn to spell check...Sheeeesh.

.

 

Oregon statute (not Mr. Contreras) requires that domestic degrees used in Oregon be either OR-approved or accredited by a US Dept. of Education recognized accreditor. A non-accredited degree issued outside Oregon can be recognized by the ODA if that office is convinced that the school that granted the degree would qualify for OR-approval if it were located in Oregon. I believe that procedures for this are stated in the Oregon administrative rules.

So what you propose already exists.

 

I think that what triggers the objections is the word "degree mill". I don't think that most of Mr. Contreras' critics have even bothered read the Oregon law. But people with non-accredited degrees of their own feel threatened if they fear that their degrees might get dissed by his office.

Personally, I would prefer if the ODA didn't try to classify out-of-state non-accredited schools. I realize that people on this board have demanded it, but it's still stupid.

Oregon should just tell us which schools' degrees are legal for use in Oregon and which aren't.

Obviously the illegal category takes in a lot of ground, from flat-out mills to more credible schools that have just never applied to Oregon. But sorting all that out and reliably classifing it would probably require more investigative resources than the ODA has.

 

You're probably correct. However, no matter how many times you say it, that will not make it happen. Because of the governmental structure used in the U.S., it is unlikely that the federal government would step in and try to create such a law.

Since that is unlikely to happen, we need states, like Oregon, to step up to the plate and provide comprehensive consumer protection and awareness.



Tom Nixon

 

Hmmm...

I certainly would not have a problem with the ODA putting "Illegal" next to all the unaccredited schools that haven't been approved. I am not sure it would make the unaccrdited degree owners any happier though!