Most Rigorous PhD

SCIS Dissertation Guide.

Nova's SCIS program office seems to frown at selection of adjunct faculty members to serve on dissertation committees. On page 24 of SCIS Dissertation Guide, they actually state that SCIS adjunct faculty members may server on dissertation committees only after they have been approved by the program office and the dean respectively. In fact, it is an exception rather than the rule to have adjuncts on dissertation committees at Nova's SCIS.

 

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Wow, all internal to the school? Our committees are set up to have one (at least) outside the school, since ti seems people could get through withouth the rigour of what the output should be.

 

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Good point but many schools in the US don't impose the use external committee members as one of the mandatory requirements. In Canada, Europe and other places, that's the norm. At SCIS, a fulltime faculty member at another university may serve but the student who intends to use an external faculty has to arrange for that. SCIS will in turn pay some stipends to the external committee member. The external committee member must also be approved by the both the program office and the dean. It's a lot of hassle.

 

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I didn't realize the differences, interesting.

It seems it would bring up some ethical issues though, being all internal?

 

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Ethical issues? I don't think so because it has been the norm for decades at many universities but I will like to see it changed. You have to be mindful of the fact that a student’s committee alone cannot approve his or her dissertation. The final report must be circulated and made available to every professor (fulltime and adjunct) in the department. Every faculty member in the department has a say on it. The dean and the doctoral program office must also approve it. If it isn't broke don't fix it.

 

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First, a couple of qualifiers. I am only referencing US recognized accredited universities. Additionally, I don't consider a US accredited online university to be virtual. Every one I have dealt with or been associated with, in one fashion or another, was very real and had both from and substance. As real as any brick and mortar with which I have been associated.

Since you asked for my opinion on your position statement, I would not say it is false....or true. I have no more supportive data to say it is true than I do to say it is false. I would have to have qualified what defines "by and large" and also what qualifies for superior. Then I would have to specifically look for dissertations from a sampling of both BM and distance based universities. Then I could assess what I found and form a valid informed opinion. Much like I did when I formed my opinion presented in my previous statement that you referenced.

Is your provided position statement one of presumption, or one founded in some general research you have performed? It looks like a good research question and a fine basis for a dissertation.

 

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What would create even greater creditability in this position would be to have average timelines for doctoral programs from all BM that offer such. I think you would be surprised at what your research produced.

 

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That is intersting. I would not think that accreditation would be a determinant of if a school is virtual or not - thanks for clarifying!

 

RFvalve wrote:

I'm sure you are comparing *online* doctorates from B/M schools and virtual schools with no B/M campus.

Lets not forget the rigor involved in pursuing degrees via distance learning. We might take it for granted now since we are used to this format of learning, but research so far shows it involves plenty of rigor and self-motivation.

I haven't seen an RA that can be completed in one year "part time."
In terms of credit, it takes about 1 year and one semester full time to graduate from an RA virtual school like Capella. You can't complete it in two semesters going full time.

If you are referring to part-time as in working full time and taking courses at night or DL, then I see not much difference between the time frame of completion from DL virtual schools and those from regular third/fourth tier b&m schools.

I think I already said this in another thread.
You can't finish a doctorate at Capella in 3 years doing part time study. In fact, 3 years full time is not that common. Few have done it (I believe Howard did it). Don't know about NCU.

Apparently they are not alone. In my local area, I am seeing one year MBA with non-GMAT requirements at schools like the University of South Florida, Nova, University of Miami and more.

I didn't see previous publications as a requirement for admission at USQ. So does it mean that is less rigurous than the other schools you mentioned? It does include years of experience (which I don't consider rigurous since most middle-age business professionals looking for a DBA already have more than 5 yrs. of work experience anyway). Other than this I see no GPA (or the equivalent) requirements, no GMAT, or letters of recommendation.

About the research proposal, I think most students with a masters have had experience doing a research proposal at one point in time, which can be used to get admitted at the schools you mentioned above. I know I was required to do one at USF. Capella requires it as well.

In addition, USQ is pretty much open admissions as far as I know, especially at the masters level. I have a close friend who was accepted at their MBA program with a mere resume and a two page goal statement. I think overall based on what I've seen USQ is a pretty solid school, but based on your rationale, it can't be that rigurous.

USQ only requires one proctored exam, right? the comprehensive. But as far as I know they don't require proctored examinations per course.

For profits such as Devry, UoP, Strayer, Argosy all require proctored exams for their b/m classes.
I'm not a big fan of any of the above, but I don't see them being touted as rigurous schools.

Some virtual schools have residency requirements, from 30 days to one year.
I think until recently USQ's only residency requirement was for the comprehensive.

Yes. but in practitioner-scholar degrees, the focus is not so much on publications. In fields such as psychology, for example, there is a clear distinction between the research oriented models and the practitioner ones that involve no publications but require much more hands on practice, testing skills, and work experience. B/M scientist-practitioner PhD programs in psychology have been heavility critisized for being too research focused. In private practice a PsyD is seen as superior. If a career in a research I university is your drive, then obviously a scientist-practitioner doctorate has no equal. I'd be silly to think that I could get a tenured-track job at USF with a PsyD (doctor of psychology) degree.


-S

 

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I would like to offer a modification to your above statement that is just as accurate:

My conclusion: On average, there is a significant difference between the rigor of dissertations written at top RA schools and those done at not top RA shools.
Look at what is produced, on average, by Mississippi State, New Mexico, East Carolina, etc.

It is nothing short of unsubstantiated conjecture to opine that DL dissertations are, as a rule, of lesser quality than the run of the mill RA state institution. Where is the evidence? Wait…not where is the presumption. Where is the evidence that would support the statement that DL universities produce dissertations of lesser academic quality than do your average BM counterpart?

When someone comes here with a completed dissertation that uses these assumptions as a basis for their hypothesis or research questions, we might actually know something. Until then, we will presume differences based on bias, and we will find questionable quality dissertations from BM universities, and we will continue to speculate and opine, all with very limited real validity.

 

I am a bit surprised at some of what I am reading and the basis for position being offered. Some of the assumptions are exactly the same used by died in the wool traditionalist academics for why distance learning, in general is inferior. They offer a ton of "obvious" reasons why DL is inferior. The list they provide is, to them , absolute in its relevance and legitimacy. After all, the reasons seem so obvious. Like the obvious reasons that some seem to see in the superiority of BM doctoral programs/dissertations over DL.

However, the huge body of research, conducted over nearly a century, of all manner and protocols demonstrates over and over that there is no significant different in learning outcomes when comparing traditional on ground to DL. Still, the traditionalists turn a blind eye because of the elusive "clear and obvious" advantages of the on ground approach.

The argument that there are "obvious" reasons that a B&M would produce better dissertations or doctoral candidates is the intellectual equivalent to the traditionalist BM academic arguing that BM produces better learning outcomes. That the research shows otherwise does not sway their attachment to the cause.

The similarity is uncanny and disheartening.

 

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I don't think we need to do a dissertation to know that schools with low paid faculty and compressed programs formats are less rigorous than the programs coming from institutions with full time faculty and standard length programs. Students register there becuase they are not as rigorous as other schools. As Andy said, they fill a gap but they are not meant to be rigorous because is what their market needs. However, they are accredited and they satisfy the minimum requirements to be considered meaningful.

 

Yes, I never said that USQ was as rigorous as other top universities.



RFvalve wrote:

does include years of experience (which I don't consider rigurous since most middle-age business professionals looking for a DBA already have more than 5 yrs. of work experience anyway). Other than this I see no GPA (or the equivalent) requirements, no GMAT, or letters of recommendation.
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GPAs, GMAT or letters recommendation are an american invention that is not normally used for european institutions.




RFvalve wrote:

About the research proposal, I think most students with a masters have had experience doing a research proposal at one point in time, which can be used to get admitted at the schools you mentioned above. I know I was required to do one at USF. Capella requires it as well.
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The purpose of the proposal is not evaluate your abilities to write one but to know how serious you are about doing a doctorate. It also tells the university the field of research so a supervisor can be allocated to you.


RFvalve wrote:

In addition, USQ is pretty much open admissions as far as I know, especially at the masters level. I have a close friend who was accepted at their MBA program with a mere resume and a two page goal statement. I think overall based on what I've seen USQ is a pretty solid school, but based on your rationale, it can't be that rigurous.
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Again, I never said the USQ is the most rigorous schools. Not because I'm attending USQ it means that it is a rigorous school. The thread was asking what is the most rigorous PhD program in business, I don't think that the USQ DBA is the most rigorous program.

RFvalve wrote:

USQ only requires one proctored exam, right? the comprehensive. But as far as I know they don't require proctored examinations per course.
[/QUOTE]

Here you are wrong, I had to write 5 exams for the DBA program. You have to travel to the closest USQ examination centre.



RFvalve wrote:

Some virtual schools have residency requirements, from 30 days to one year.
I think until recently USQ's only residency requirement was for the comprehensive.
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Again, why are you picking on USQ? I never said that this school was much more rigorous than other schools. As a matter I fact I registered in USQ because it is flexible and it accomodates my needs. I was registered at a local and very rigorous university but decided to go for USQ because I'm not willing to spend 4 years full time and to work 60 hours a week to get a piece of paper. I rather use the time to make connections and get more experience, it is a trade off but rigorous schools require time and effort.

As Andy said, we have to know the limitations of the options we take. As a matter of fact, I applied for a tenure track position at the university where I teach and I was told that the USQ DBA was not considered "a serious" degree by some committe members. This of course came from a friend of mine that was present in the selection committe and was unofficial, but the reality is that if you don't spend four years full time in a school they don't feel that is as rigorous and the true is that it is "not".
In my case, some faculty members adviced me to go for a post-doc position to make up for the "not-rigorous" DBA, but this is a decision that I will have to make.


Regards,






-S [/B][/QUOTE]

 

RFvalve wrote:

Some look for schools of less rigor. But my impression is that students register because DL gives them the flexibility to pursue their endeavors around their tight schedule.

 

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I have found this not true. How would you say European schools screen their applicants???????

 

WWWHHHHHOOOOOAAA!!!!!!!

I am reading some pretty inaccurate statements. Let us take a step back for a minute. There are differences in schools, but the schools being compared are more than a difference in delivery, there is a difference in accreditation, and rankings of the school.

I think it is very inaccurate to say DL schools are inferior, since TOP schools in the a number of countries are DL.

I think it is very inaccurate to say students sign up for a DL program, becuase they are wanting less rigurous programs.

I think the pertinent variable is not the delivery, since at a doctrate level, it is about indivudual research, not like in a bachelor's setting needing to learn many concepts for the first time.

I am sure there are some here pulling our legs, making an argument that does not make sense, right? This would be like me saying "There is a degree mill in Calfornia, so all schools in California are as rigorous as a degree mill" - Though you can come up with examples of schools that are and are not as equivelant, it is not the pertinent variable. Good grief!

 

RFvalve wrote:

I'm sorry to hear abou this. You will also have to live with the fact that your endeavors probably require MORE rigor and self-discipline than others who pursued their degree the traditional way. USQ might not be Harvard, but again, pursuing a degree DL is not easy and we are all aware of the rigor involved in pursuing it regardless of its ranking. Pursuing a degree with all the time in the world is a hell of a lot easier than pursuing one with so many commitments and distractions from outside sources (job, family, etc).

-s

 

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These are your words.."Students register there because they are not as rigorous as other schools." You are talking about me, here. You could not be more wrong. I would have gladly signed up for a University of Maryland doctoral program were it possible for me to do so without significant time spent on campus. I did not seek less rigor, as you posit I did.

It is a remarkable declaration to be made without offer for a shred of supporting evidence. I am quite taken aback by the willingness for some to espouse and accept concepts and opinions as though they are reality with no sense of need to offer any supportive evidence.

Believe me, what seems to be "obvious" is almost assured to be not so once there is valid research conducted on the assumption. To simply declare a thing to be so, does not make it so. This is a tact usually reserved for the degree mill shill, not an RA apologist.

 

Let's first say that the discussion is not just DL in general but about virtual schools deliverying DL programs with the objective of making a profit.

The thread was about rigorous PhD programs in business. My perception is that for-profit virtual universties are less rigorous than BM universities offering DL programs.

If a student graduates from a DL DBA from Manchester (ranked in the top 100 by financial times), the rigour of the degree won't be questioned because the reputation of the school.

If one gets a PhD from a virtual school (no names mentioned to avoid hurting feelings), the perception is that the work done is not at the same level as one from a BM school.

My definition of a BM school is an institution that not only offers on campus programs but has research facilities and full time faculty dedicated to research and teaching.

The main issue is that virtual schools tend to be more flexible since they need to attract students to make money. The other issue is that you cannot have a very rigorous program and flexible at the same time, rigorous means that you need to spend the time and effort while flexible means that you need to accomodate job and family commitments.

 

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Oh yeah? Have a look at some of the dissertations produced by Virginia Tech's Home Economics department...

Dave