More positive information about an MBA

http://encarta.msn.com/elearning/121.asp

 

The numbers (in terms of salary) are a =lot= less than those listed for the same schools in USNWR. I can't account for the disparity unless they only surveyed those who landed jobs at IBs.

 

Basically a puff piece by a web site trying to promote dl MBAs. Nothing I would put any faith in.

 

I know about a dozen people (mostly engineers) with MBAs from schools such as USC, UCLA, UCI, UCSB, Pepperdine, CSUDH, and U of Phoenix. Except for two MBAs, the rest all did not see any salary increase or promotion because of their MBA beyond their normal annual increases. Of the two exceptions, one self employed and one left for a job with a low salary but a large sales commision.

 

Everyone knows of stories like those.

My friend's former girlfriend had a law degree from Tulane, passed the bar exam, and the only job she could get was stocking shelves at Barnes and Noble for $6.50/hr.

When you read one thing and see another, it's one of those things that makes you say "huh?"

RedStickHam

 

Sounds like my wife's friend who is using her law degree from Northwestern to help customers find stuff at Home Depot.

 

Oh yeah, she flunked the bar the first time out, too. Kind of hard to fathom coming from that particular school.....but go figure.

 

...Still those people have law degrees from top tier (well NU is top tier, Tulane second) schools and eventually will find their way.

 

The MBA is more like a long term investment. You don't see an automatic salary increase, however, several studies show that an engineering degree with an MBA can boost your salary in the long term. You can say the same thing about a PhD, how many engineers get salary increases because of a PhD in the short term.

 

One of the 2-year colleges where I have taught is always perpetually short of business adjuncts. I've entertained the idea of doing an online M.B.A. just to make some extra money as a business adjunct. Depending on the cost of the M.B.A. program, I figure that it would take anywhere from 3-5 courses to make the money back. The rest is gravy.


Bruce

 

Not true. It depends on the School. Regardless of the one or two stories on this forum, take the Anderson School at UCLA MBA program. Graduates enter making an average of $50,000/year. They leave making an average of $88,000 plus average Bonuses of $25,000 per person not including other comp.

For schools that are not ranked among the nations top 25 or so, the chances of quick recoup-ing of costs are less impressive. The situation is even more unfavorable as you get oputside the top 50. Most AACSB programs really do not provide a positive ROI. On Line MBA';s are even further down the food chain as the vast majority of those can not even claim AACSB accredidation, which is by no means an attestation alone.

 

Another point. Many top 25 MBA programs - ranging from top 5 schools like Harvard Penn-Wharton, Northwestern-Kellogg on down to lower top 25 schools like Vanderbilt-Owen, U of Maryland-Smith, Rochester-Simon, Georgetown-Mcdonough etc etc send their students to MC/IB where salary curves precipitously upwards.

Last year, a third year associate at McKinsey could expect to see their salary in the mid 300-500K a year range, 3 years after an ordinary post-mba offer of $100k a year.

Of Course, in a tough economy, McKinsey is less likely to recruit from Vanderbilt-Owen, Emory-Goizueta, Maryland_Smith, Indiana Bloomington-Kelley etc etc making the flight to quality even more fierce (ie Top 10). Currently the average GMAT score of enetering students at top 25 schools is damn near 700/800 even as high paying opportunities start to dry up.

Non Top 25 programs (Penn State-Smeal, Wisconsin Madison, Illinois UC, GA Tech-Dupree, Wake Forest Babcock...[have less placement success and are more regional] and the other AACSB schools are probably waste of money in a tough economy unless the sole purpose is to learn management principles.

 

So if an MBA is useless as you say. Why 50% or more of the graduate students at any university are doing an MBA?, If an MBA is useless, what is the hope for people in this forum doing graduate degrees in fields of less demand like religion, ethics and philosophy?. An MBA is still the ticket for many business jobs, if a person holds a degree in arts or science and wants to get into a business job, then the MBA is highly beneficial. If someone is already working in a business field and hopes to get a substantial salary increase from an MBA then it is a different story.

 

I totally agree. Some MBA programs tend to inflate the salary outcomes in order to attract students. What is the USNWR?

 

USNWR = US News, the annual ranking juggernaut.

A couple more points on the value of an MBA. Especially the value of an inexpensive one.

First point - If you are in a profession where your pay is automatically upgraded for a higher degree, the cheaper the better, as long as it is RA.

Second point - An MBA with an accounting emphasis qualifies a person to sit for the CPA exam in most states. Again, the cheaper the better, as long as it is RA.

Tony

And this after totally ignoring anything you may learn, which is also valuable.

 

"I totally agree. Some MBA programs tend to inflate the salary outcomes in order to attract students. What is the USNWR?"

This is a VERY accusatory post. Which schools do this? You better be prepared to back up your statement.

First off, a school can get in alot of trouble with AACSB (the numbers are subject to audit) if they fudge numbers (not to mention civil remedies). If anything, the numbers in USNews for the top 25 schools are under-indicative of the ability to gain increased salary since it is an average of EVERYONE at Bschool looking for a job--any job. The higher the ranking school the tighter the numbers had better be. The whole business of business school is a model that depends on it.

As for your other post, you are actually correct,though I am not sure whatr you're arguing. The ONLY point of an MBA is career placement of its students. This is a HUGE part of rankinbgs methodologies used by US News (USNWR).

The ranking most used by the HR departments of Top tier Fortune 100 firms, IBs and MCs are the Businessweek rankings available at www.businessweek.com.

All bets are off for non-AACSB schools however, such as most DL MBA's that do not require GMAT.

 

I'll even go one further. I'll wager the material learned at Podunk U PT MBA program is the equivalent of the education received at Harvard. However the differences come intoplay are: Quality of teammates and Quality of Placement. You're buying pedigree and a network when you but a top tier MBA, which is essentially glorified trade school (no flames please, I too am interested in an MBA).

Here are the most recent MBA rankings courtesy of Businessweek.com. Note that NOT ONE of them has an online program with the exception of Duke-Fuqua and Indiana Bloomington-Kelley. (Although the Kelley degree appears tobe a hybrid IU/IUPUI degree).

1 Northwestern (Kellogg)
2 Chicago
3 Harvard
4 Stanford
5 Pennsylvania (Wharton)
6 MIT (Sloan)
7 Columbia
8 Michigan
9 Duke (Fuqua)
10 Dartmouth (Tuck)
11 Cornell (Johnson)
12 Virginia (Darden)
13 UC Berkeley (Haas)
14 Yale
15 NYU (Stern)
16 UCLA (Anderson)
17 USC (Marshall)
18 UNC (Kenan-Flagler)
19 Carnegie Mellon
20 Indiana (Kelley)
21 Texas (McCombs)
22 Emory (Goizueta)
23 Michigan State
24 Washington (Olin)
25 Maryland (Smith)
26 Purdue (Krannert)
27 Rochester (Simon)
28 Vanderbilt (Owen)
29 Notre Dame (Mendoza)
30 Georgetown (McDonough)

 

Thanks for the list, Where is Touro, Walden, Capella and Argosy ?

They don't figure in any ranking, not even at four tier level. Does this mean that they are almost worthless degrees?

 

This is going to come of as REALLY elitist and rambling, but you need to hear it. Let me be as honest as I can since I feel it is important you get a real sense of what the MBA is about and consider all your options. Disclaimer: I am probably headed to Cornell's Johnson School for business school. If not, I'll go PT to NYU Stern...not a truly top tier program like Wharton as such, but a reasonable (ie Top 20) pedigree.

First, an MBA is NOT an academic degree per se..it is a credential that teaches you management skills and hopefully gets your CV to the top of the pile. This isn't to say you won't learn anything...I suspect the textbook on OD at Capella is the same as at Harvard. But in fairness, Capella et al really probably not worth your time unless you're just taking a few classes to brush up on management fundamentals pre MBA. It may even tarnish your CV more than no MBA.

For two reasons.

One, an MBA is about career/opportunities. A DL, non ranked school MBA will not accomplish your goal of career advancement unless the firm you work for simply accepts any MBA (even a non AACSB one) for a promotion within. Even then, what will you do when you leave?

I mean, many would argue 2,975 programs of the 3,000 out there fail this marketibility test...to return on ROI unless you get a substantial scholarship. I can dwell further on this, but you get my point. Anyone can become a VP or Controller with or without a grad degree, However, McKinsey is not hiring any George Washington University or Boston U MBA's much less branch campus schools of fill-in-the-blank major state university MBAs. They may be reputable schools (ie top 75 or so) but they aren't first stops on their wish list of talented management material, fair or not. Do you think they would dip down even further (sorry for the insinuations) to the level of non AACSB accredited DL MBA's? Fair or not, no way in hell. They have to sell your CV to the client who more than likely is the CEO of a fortune 100 firm with an MBA him/her self.

Second, the process of learning how to interact in the world of business...in teams. By going DL instead of traditional PT or FT, you miss out on true point of the case study method...to see the whites of the eyes..the poker face if you will...of your teammates and opposing groups while constructing a point of view that supports both teamwork and an effective solution. This is business people! Posting text on a eBlackboard doesn't cut it.

Solution for you: My thought it that if you fail to break 600 on the GMAT, I guess you could make the argument to go to a traditional part time MBA at the best regional school in town.

If you HAVE to do Distance learning, here are some acceptable alternatives (if you do not gain acceptance to a PT program of a top 50 school...which I guarantee you will):

Duke FuQua (VERY SELECTIVE) - actually this is more valuable then PT programs because of brand...but this is the exception
IU/IUPUI Kelley
UF Warrington
Babson
MAYBE Rensellaer Lally School

Please understand I am not slamming Capella, Argosy, UMUC, Penn State World Campus, U of Michigan-Dearborn, Phoenix etc etc. I bet they are every bit as challenging as any other program. The rub lies in marketability and, in this case...even the experience of gaining the education.

Final thoughts: Again, 3,000 insitutions offer management graduate degrees in the US alone. Of those, only the top 12.5% (about 350) even qualify for AACSB accredidation. Of those, arguably only 50 schools have anything close to a solid regional/national presense with HR recruiters. Of those 50, IBs and MCs and F100's only recruit from the top 10-15 schools...possibly dipping aslow as 25-30 for positions where the school is strong in a regional employment market (ie Notre Dame in Chicago, University of Maryland in DC, Emory in Atlanta). I am convinced you can get into a top 50 program at the very least.I know someone with a 2.2 undergrad GPA from a Penn State branch campus who got into Boston College's Carroll School of Management for example.

Feel free to disagree with anything I have said. It is only one person's opinion and sorry for rambling on.

 

"If an MBA is useless, what is the hope for people in this forum doing graduate degrees in fields of less demand like religion, ethics and philosophy?. "

I had always thought people pursuing non Law/MBA graduate degrees were doing it for more academic reasons...ie to ACTUALLY LEARN SOMTHING...maybe a career in academe, what have you.

An MBA is fundamentally different from a PhD in Philosophy. You simply DON'T get a PhD in Philosophyto get ahead in Business (though youmight anyway).

HTH.