Mentally drained, trying to decide on a degree,major,path

Off topic...

As somebody who grew up in that area, the job market in Scranton/Wilkes-Barre always seemed bleak and like it never recovered after coal mining in the area went the way of the dinosaur in the 60s.

 

Actually, you were the one who said the job doesn't require a degree. I said that many states only require an associate's or bachelor's degree. I also said that less than a bachelor's degree is often required, which is not the same as no degree. Some states require a master's degree for this field. It's not uncommon for jobs to pay more for a higher-level degree. Also, some states will let you skip practicum, internship, and/or specific addictions counseling coursework as long as you have a higher-level degree in a related field.

Median is the best measure of central tendency in cases like this. The key phrase is "central tendency." How am I arguing that this ensures that you receive zero ROI? If you earn your degree cheaply (which I advocated for and you can do this for less than $6,000 at TESC) and put yourself in a position where you will likely earn more than someone with just a high school diploma, then how is that ensuring zero ROI? And, I can assure you that the data for substance abuse counselors for a whole state include more than just two employers. However, you can find salaries broken down by percentile on BLS. The overwhelming majority of substance abuse counselors earn more than $30k no matter how you try to twist it.

Substance Abuse and Behavioral Disorder Counselors

 

No, I never said that. What I said was:

And I went through, state by state, looking at requirements. The total number of states that requires an Associates degree? 8. The total number requiring no degree at all? 22. In fairness, that number includes three states that only allow a non-degreed person to possess the lowest tier license with higher tiers at the bachelors and masters level. Still, in a nation of 50 states (plus D.C. which, incidentally, requires an associates degree) I felt that 19-22 was a safe number to use the word "many."

I feel compelled to, again, point out that I never disagreed with anything you said, sanantone. I was simply offering a perspective from my own experience, just as you did. Why you have become so defensive is beyond me. But your need to twist my words into an outright lie, when the truth was literally two clicks away, is incredibly sad.

Associates? 8. Bachelors? More than that. Still less than the number of states that require no degree at all, however. But hey, that can easily be "many." Incidentally, one of the states where an associates degree is required for licensure is your very own Lone Star State.

Less than a bachelors degree while not meaning "no degree" is an associates degree. There is no degree below an associates or between associate's and bachelor's. So if it isn't an associates degree, it is a non-degree, likely a certificate or diploma program. But you'll notice that "less than a bachelors degree often being required" is pretty darn close to what I said. I'm not sure why you are zeroing in on such minute detail. Is it really that important to you that you have the final, definitive say on all subjects you touch?

By my count, only 9 states require a Masters to the exclusion of all other education. So, only 9 states say "Masters degree or the highway." A few more states have a top tier of licensure that requires a Masters degree but, even in those states, you can enter the field with less than a masters.

Yeah, actually it is pretty uncommon. It's a common misconception that having a higher degree level than a job requires automatically gets you higher pay and it's one of the things that likely influences the level of degree inflation we're seeing today.

If a job is posted with a range of $30k-$35k commensurate with experience, it is very uncommon to find an employer who will bump you to the high end of the range on the basis of a degree only. You might get a small bump, but you're not maxing out the range. So, let's say we have a person with a license and zero experience, and let's say they get the $30k. A person with a license, a masters and zero experience, might get $32k. But a person with a license and years of experience might go all the way to the top. Now, if a person with a license, years of experience and a Masters shows up, they are still not going to get more than the top of the range, so $35k.

This isn't a substance abuse situation. This is a compensation management thing. When I hire new engineers (less than one year of experience) they typically start around $42k. Oh, you have a Masters? $45k. And that's your degree boost whether you have a two year M.S. or a one year M.Eng. The cap on an entry level engineer is $48k. So, if someone with a PhD and no work experience shows up, the absolute most I can do is $3k more than the Masters level engineer. And because I put him or her at the top of the hiring range, that also means s/he is going to hit the position max well before the person with the bachelors degree. That means they'll get a 4% merit increase for the first year and then drop down to 1% after that. Meanwhile, the bachelors level engineer is going to earn an additional 4% raise each year until promotion to the next level.

The PhD engineer is still ahead but not by nearly as much as one would expect for having a doctorate for a position requiring a bachelors degree.

This isn't specific to mental health or engineering. This is how it works in any industry that compensates people. Companies are typically willing to pay extra for experience with the expectation that you'll hit the ground running. Companies are increasingly more reluctant to pay extra for degrees that are "above and beyond" the position requirements and preferences. And it was the same when I was hiring nurses, programmers, physicians and insurance professionals.

But, considering you seem to be of the opinion that no one's opinion on substance abuse counseling has any validity, I'm sure you'll jump in and tell me how you know my present job better than I do as well or how HR in Texas is completely different. Or, as you've done earlier, you might just lie about what I've said so that you can twist it around.

Yes they do. New York is one such state. In fact, New York allows you to do this with graduate degrees in Education, Sociology, Divinity, Anthropology, Nutrition or Criminal Justice. But those aren't requirements to enter the field. And some of them are significantly more costly than just completing the standard approved education and training. In fact, New York used to include specific hour equivalency. But their website has been adjusted to simply say that they "may" satisfy some requirements and you should submit transcripts for a full review.

But in New York, no degree is required for credentialing. So if your desire is to break into this field it can be done without first earning a graduate degree. Would a BA in Psychology be helpful in finding a job? Sure. But, to my original point, because this is a regulated profession, you are unlikely to be able to just show up at an employer's doorstep with degree in hand and say "OK, hire me!" In addition to your degree you will require additional training. That puts addiction counselor in the same class as HR, UI/UX designer or any number of other examples we've presented here in that your degree might look good on a resume, but you would also need to go out and seek additional training and certification.

So, as fun as it might be to run down this Masters degree rabbit hole with you, I think I've made my point about some of the limitations of the profession. But, by all means, feel free to accuse me of saying other ridiculous things I never said so that you can have the final word here.

 

So, which looks more casually thrown out there? Substance abuse counseling or HR and marketing?

So, what is this? It definitely isn't a repeat of something I said, so it had to come from your own head. Or, were you accusing me of saying something I didn't say?

You're the one who researched the requirements of all 50 states to defend yourself.

LOL. But, you did say it.

What you said is more in line with the statement that you adamantly claim you didn't say.

I'm assuming that you've done a lot of HR work in this field or that you've been on the job market in this field in the past 10 years or so. Or, maybe you belong to an addictions/substance abuse counseling professional organization and have conversed with people in this field on what often influences pay and rank.

There are differences between how the private sector, public sector, and government contractors typically structure pay. The federal government regularly hires people at higher grades based on a higher-level degree, alone. It is extremely common for criminal justice agencies to pay more for a higher-level degree, alone. Having a higher-level degree could also mean that you'll be bumped up the career ladder at a state or local agency in positions such as Parole Officer II, Counselor II, or Corrections Officer II. I've also witnessed this at non-profit organizations, but I haven't looked at their jobs at the scale that I've looked at government jobs. It is also common for organizations to pay more for higher-level certifications such as the IC&RC certifications that are faster to obtain with more education.

That's a bit of a stretch because you're the only one going back and forth with me. You're just one person; you're not everyone.

Or, maybe you just have a bad memory.

This is all pointless like most of what you've written. I didn't even imply that you could get a BA in psychology and immediately become a substance abuse counselor without meeting the regulatory requirements.

LOL. That memory is really struggling there.

This is just petty, pointless, and adds nothing to the discussion. I know the requirements for a license in my state and never implied that it required more than an associate's degree. However, having a BA did make meeting the requirements as an intern much easier and faster. And, one can earn a BA from one of the Big 3 for about the same cost and time it takes to earn an associate's degree at more traditional colleges. I think you need to reread my original post to see how it was a response to the OP wanting to work in human services and start off with an associate's degree. You will also see that I referenced the BA in Psychology when talking about other occupations.

 

All I said was "many states don't require a degree." Which is true. You are saying that I said "the job doesn't require a degree." This is a lie. I've shown you exactly what I've said and the best you can respond with is "LOL, but you did say it."

So, show me the proof. I directly quoted what I said on the first page of this thread. But you can't. You've chosen a narrative and you're going to vigorously defend it to the end.

It is pointless, saanantone. And really, really sad that you need to look at a direct quote and claim it says something it very clearly does not.

 

Oh, my word. I did quote you and even bolded the statement. I guess I could also underline it, put it in italics, and change the color.

I have more.

So, yes, this is really sad. It's really sad that you can't even remember what you said a couple of days ago or go back to look at it and are acting like you're some kind of victim.

 

Oops. I forgot to highlight another part of that quote.