Looking for a DBA / PhD program !

DCross,

I cannot comment upon the academic rigor of TUI but there has been much anecdotal evidence on this board, research published in the mainstream press and comments in academic guides that degrees from "virtual" schools are not widely respected and in some cases, accepted (call it University of Pheonix-itis).

The existence of "virtual" degree mills (regionally accredited or otherwise) has created a high degree of skepticism towards degrees from these types of schools (call it close-minded but that's the fact, jack).

The "branch college" thing is a nice ploy... perhaps needed to meet some of the requirements of RA... but don't be fooled into thinking that a TUI degree will not be placed in the "virtual U" category.

Dave,

If this was the only non-resident business doctorate program available, it wouldn't be perfect... but the best alternative available. However with a few non-resident and traditional doctorates available from reputable b&m universities at reasonable prices, there isn't really a compelling reason to pursue the degree. Foreign degrees (from reputable education systems) are readily accepted in the US, so there are not any concerns in that regard.

A friend of mine had a good line... there isn't one degree that is right for everyone but there are some that aren't right for anyone.

 

And now for some facts about TUI ...

Ken, Walter, the man never bothered by facts ... said ...

"Touro... you have got to be kidding. Touro is a virtual university... don't let the "branch campus of" thing fool you. Touro College does not grant the degree, provide the curriculum or the faculty... you cannot "transfer" to Touro College because they do not offer the same, or even similar, programs... you will have a degree from Touro University International... an American virtual university. It is regionally accredited (whoop, whoop) but it is not in the same league as these british / australian alternatives and may not be taken seriously."

Yet then our mystery (non-cite-able) expert said ....

"I cannot comment upon the academic rigor of TUI but there has been much anecdotal evidence on this board, research published in the mainstream press and comments in academic guides that degrees from "virtual" schools are not widely respected and in some cases, accepted (call it University of Pheonix-itis). "

Some facts (I'll let Ken do the research to confirm this ...)

Ken is commenting on a school where he has no knowledge
of the academic rigor ... but blasts away ... right Ken.

Touro has 2 B&M schools, one with business programs
on the west coast ...

Touro College is involved, the student loan check comes
from ... Touro College ...

Nova ... used Touro's program in a recent review to
consider offering similar programs there ...

As to transfering ... of course you can't transfer to
the College ... DUH, Ken ... they are different schools
as to subject matter ! Hello, I'm a business major
but have decided I'd like to be a lawyer ... you can't
do that in a B&M school either ...

Even within the same B-school's, the program may
not transfer courses ? Example: Strong AACSB school
in the west, their eMBA (1 year) and their other MBA
programs have different schedules, one is VERY
accelerated so you can't switch back and forth.

But then again, facts have never bothered Ken before ...

We're still waiting for answers to questions you've
been asked now on multiple occasions ...

I'll now return the forum to Ken, Walter, <you fill in the
blank here> continued bashing of the USA, RA, etc.

Gee Ken, I don't understand why/how you can stand
to stay here ... or are you REALLY in Texas this week ?

Billy

Disclaimer ... current TUI student

 

Could you be more specific about what you feel is missing from TUI's degree programs?

Thanks,

Dave

 

It seems to me that schools like Excelsior have led to reasonable successf or members of this board. BTW, is Excelsior a "virtual college"?

Of course acceptance of fully online programs will be with a fight, but it they are becoming more accepted as time passes. The true test is whether or not the program is good. If it is proven to be, the acceptability will result. In general, I think educators should embrace the awesome potentiality of the Internet, or they are sure to be left behind.

 

All things equal, there is a definite pecking order that should be considered in choosing a program. The reasons for this? Real and perceived quality issues, level of comfort and ease of understanding of the traditional, whatever, but the bias definetly exists (as a generality of course... there is anecdotal evidence to contradict almost anything).

1 Full-time traditional Brick & Morter Programs
2 Part-time traditional Brick & Morter Programs
3 Distance programs offered from a b&m via parallel instruction (i.e. same as the traditional B&M or standards as the B&M program without residency requirements... this is the Cal State Dom Hills, Heriot-Watt, etc., model)
4 Accelerated programs from B&M schools
5 Traditional programs from virtual schools
6 Accelerated programs from virtual schools

Of course the "steps" are not equal, the difference in respect between a full-time/part-time b&m program is probably fairly small. Of course, the reputation of the school is very important and can shift the mix... but generally this is a pretty sound view.

So, all other things equal, if you can obtain a full-time traditional b&m degree you will probably be better off than a distance degree. If you can obtain a degree via parallel instruction, you will probably be better off than a traditional program from a virtual school... etc.

I am not sure how accelerated TUI is but it is most definetly a virtual school. Therefore, you will generally be better off with a degree from a b&m school... are there alternatives to TUI?

Again, this bias has been well documented. Does this mean that virtual schools are worthless... of course not. A degree from the university of Phoenix is not worthless but neither is it as valuable as a full-time degree from Harvard... if you have the opportunity to choose between the two, which should you choose, methinks Harvard.

No, I am not suggesting that CS or USQ are Harvard but neither are they American virtual universities.

Yes!

 

Ken,

Can you cite a reference on the information below?

Here's the M-W entry on how they spell "Morter" in Houston:

Main Entry: 1mor·tar
Pronunciation: 'mor-t&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English morter, from Old English mortere & Middle French mortier, from Latin mortarium
Date: before 12th century
1 : a strong vessel in which material is pounded or rubbed with a pestle
2 [Middle French mortier] a : a muzzle-loading cannon having a tube short in relation to its caliber that is used to throw projectiles at high angles b : any of several similar firing devices


Dave

 

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If you are confident that you do not desire teaching than a CA Approved program will meet the VAST majority of your needs. The exception is that you might run into an employer who requires an accredited degree. In theory the CA Approved programs are accredited in that a QA process applies to the CA Approved institution. I have found that educating the employer regarding the CA Approval process (referring the employer to the BPPVE website) has resulted in 100% acceptance of the CA Approved degree. Granted my research was a small sample (not randomly drawn) of 28 employers in North Central Tennessee and South Central Kentucky. BTW, I was assigned this task (contracted) by the US Dept of Labor. You see the USDOL sponsored an injured worker for retraining and needed to know if the degree earned (distance model, BTW) would be accepted. The answer was yes. Since I and my client had to personally conduct this research I decided this would be a good opportunity to determine if these employers required an accredited degree versus just discussing the distance model. Those that do require an accredited degree agreed that the CA Approval met this requirement since all they [the employers] really wanted was to be assured that the degree was earned by way of real study versus a purchased diploma, if you will.

Accredited institutions rarely hire a doctoral (unaccredited) degree holder to teach because they want to protect the accreditation process and by permitting hiring of unaccredited degree holders is in essence devaluing their very process.

A CA Approved degree will ALMOST ALWAYS meet employment needs.

Good Luck!

Wes

 

While picking apart the value of a degree from Touro, I wonder what the evidence is. Is the bias simply due to society's unfamiliarity of the name? Most educated people have heard of Ivy league schools; therefore, they may be more accepted (better reputation because of familiarity?). Given this, do you think it is fair to compare distance education programs to the more established b&m universities based on this? I think we would be better off considering the utility of the degree. A better question may be: will this degree provide me with what I need (an individual rather than group choice)?

A degree from a primarily (or solely) distance educator may not be popular now, but five or ten years from now it may be the norm. Remember, 15 years ago the Internet was only used by scientists and the government...maybe these schools will follow suit. Evidence suggests that distance education will be a very large part of our future, why not support it? If you had the foresight and timing of "the Bill Gates' of the world", you too would be a multi-billionaire. Maybe these schools are the dawning of a new era in education; after all, even Ivy league schools are considering distance education programs.

I don't think distance education will completely replace b&m, but it will be more readily accepted by society. An employer may not be familiar with Touro Univerisity International or University of Phoenix today, but as these programs gain popularity, they may gain acceptance. If I had to choose between hiring someone from a top 50 school vs Touro, of course I would pick the top 50 graduate. But, if I had to choose between someone holding a masters from a state university or someone holding a PhD from Touro, the doctor has the advantage. It provides evidence that the person has the motivation and discipline to achieve a goal.

If you look at the 2000 census you will find that LESS THAN ONE percent of working Americans hold a doctorate. This leads me to believe that a doctorate should be considered a significant accomplishment. While it is not a requirement for many professions, it may give you the edge you need to get hired. As for those professions that do require a PhD, they will most likely also require significant contributions to research. Therefore, the doctorate is merely a foundation - the real measurement is the contribution.

Thanks for your time,
Gary

 

Of course this acceptance will depend upon society's perception of the quality of the degree. Right now, UofP has a questionable reputation (at least in this forum).

 

University of Phoenix Online has good programs, but its high visibility makes it a straightforward target for those who have latent motives against DL. With regard to doctoral programs, the UOP Doctor of Management (DM) seems to have more of an applications focus, while the TUI Ph.D. has more of a research focus. TUI's Ph.D. might be more appropriately compared with Capella's Ph.D. All three seem to be rigorous programs. A thought...

Dave

 

What about considering the personality of the applicant? The level and amount of work experience? How motivated are they? What the applicant would like to do five years from now? What other qualities can this person bring to your company?

I interview people for very high-paying positions (125K+/yr. ) inside a major corporation all the time. I hired one yesterday. You know what it comes down to? Not education. Most of our applicants have some form of education. But, we don't even rate or rank the academic credentials beyong a mere fleeting glance on the resume (background checks weed out non-RA and lying applicants). I don't even have academic credentials other than being a current DL student of a B&M school, but I brought ten years of direct, relevant work experience to my position.

When it comes down to it, how much relevant work experience an applicant has, how motivated they are, how well the vibe among their potential peers is, and someone who has thought enough about the future to have a goal plan in place - even if it doesn't include us - are the ones we hire. Not who has the better academic credential but may have no relevant experience or, all things being equal, is a twit no one likes.

Christian

 

Re: Re: Looking for a DBA / PhD program !

This would be nice. But not true at the company (a Fortune 500) for which I work, whose requirements for valid US credentials state in part:

• The school, college or university must be accredited by an accrediting body within the Council for Higher Education Accreditation or the Accrediting Commission of Career Schools and Colleges of Technology.

Perhaps most companies are different...

 

GBrown,

You have a number of schools in the "University of Phoenix" group... minimum academic standards, universityofphoenixsucks web-sites, voted most likely to appear on 60 minutes, very little respect, extremely accelerated programs, for profit (yes, I realize TUI is non-profit), etc.

Now, do all "virtual" programs fall into this category? Maybe, maybe not, but regardless this is the crowd you are running with.

I once had a headhunter tell me that he advises candidates with UoP degrees to take them off their resumes when interviewing with the fortune 100 crowd (sorry, true story). The problem is not that UoP is unknown, rather that it is known too well. Unfortunately, if there are high quality programs from virtual schools they may well being classified in this group.

The question I have is, why bother???

There are so many wonderful programs available from so many wonderful schools now, there is seldom the necessity to enroll in these schools and take a chance on both quality and respect.

Of course, many of these wonderful programs don't advertise much... so research is required.

 

Dave,

We don't spake or rite American too good in Texas... if you don't believe me, look at har Presedent.

 

To fulfill a dream while staying within my allocated resources.

I intend to use my PhD as a foundation for further study, eventually positioning myself for post-military employment in a teaching position. I view it as a starting point. The contributions stemming from the initial research is what makes a difference - in other words: the degree is a license to learn.

The degree also provides me with a substantial advantage when I'm due for promotion. Right or wrong, the Army places a fairly high emphasis on civilian education among their officers - I don't know of ANY other helicopter pilots with a PhD.

I am also looking at UMUC's distance educator certificates (leading to an M.Ed.). I haven't made a decision about that, yet. I'm very interested in teaching on-line and writing courses for independent study. I can keep flying for the Army and prepare for retirement at the same time!

I cannot attend regular classes at a b&m due to work requirements, nor is it realistic to think I can travel to Florida or wherever for a summer seminar (Nova). So, Touro is the best solution for me - not for everyone.

Gary

 

A library card is a license to learn. And it's free!

Christian

 

I can also see an opportunity to teach in ROTC Programs, or at a military Junior college. Although an MBA is all that is required, it seems a PhD will help

 

GBrown,

I think you misunderstood my question "why bother, when there are non-resident options from respected b&m universities"?

 

I think we all choose the program that works best for us....


If Harvard offered a DL PhD, I'd likely pursue it. There are many options and variables. For someone who wants a PhD that is RA and requires no residence........the choice is clear. To some, these issues may not be important. They would choose another program.

This is what I know: When I am faculty at a small college, or junior college, I will paid at the doctoral rate, my PhD will listed in literature, and I won't have to worry about any timebombs. For me, Touro University International is the perfect choice.