Is the Bible inerrant or not to be taken seriously?

I just had to comment on this. Does the scripture from 1Sam15 reveal anything about God's "moral" nature? I think it does.

First, we must decide who sets the standard for morals. Are we speaking of relative or absolute morals.

If we venture that morals are relative, then the scripture should not present a problem, since morals shift with societal customs and acceptance. No one can state with any certainity if God's command was just or not because we are comparing God's action against our current definition of morality. Something no moral relativists would ever support.

If we are taking absolutes (and I believe we are) then there must be a basis for morality. The dictionary defines morals as "Conforming to standards of what is right or just in behavior". All we have to do is determine who or what sets the standards. It cannot be us or we are back to a relative position. If it is God that establishes absolutes, then by definition whatever He does is either "right" or "just".

In the case of the scripture you quoted, God takes action against an entire group of people. Is this moral or not? If God sets the standards and He is perfect, then his action must fit his nature and also be perfect -- or in this case "just"

So the scripture tells us that part of God's moral nature is justice. We must accept the position that in His perfect will and nature there are actions that we are incapable of understanding, BUT do reveal to us that such action is necessary and just.

God has made it very clear throughout history what the consequences of our decisions are. In the end there should be no surprises.

 

You make a great point here. In this case it was a specific command to Samuel to give to Saul to test Saul's obedience. If the church (historically and today) chooses to extract this action from its OT dispensation and inappropriately apply it to a new dispensation, then you condemn the moral nature of man and the church (no big surprise there), not God.

God spoke to the prophets in many ways -- conversation, dreams, epiphanies, feelings -- Man is still guided by the Spirit of God through His word, but according to the direction of a new dispensation.

Now, I do not claim to speak for God, I am not the expert, I suppose at any time God could give that command and if it were truly from God, it would be right and just -- no matter what the command.



One last thought. I subscribe to theory that nobody can be argued into the kingdom. I am simply sharing my thoughts and conclusions regarding your comments. Though I wish my words could convert your thinking, that is the Holy Spirit's job.

 

Because God is portrayed as ordering his people to commit genocide. He demanded that the Hebrews erase an entire ethnic group from the face of the earth; men, women, children, even their animals.

Obviously, when committed by human beings, genocide is a crime of utter, total and inescapable evil. It's the attempt to commit genocide that more than anything, damns Adolph Hitler.

I find it impossible to accept that the same crimes that damn Hitler are fine and morally unobjectionable when they are commanded by God. In fact, I consider that suggestion to be blasphemy.

I think that there is. A huge one.

God is in danger of being reduced into something indistinguishable from Satan.

 

Absolutely....well said, Carl.

 

If you interpret scripture within the moral context in which they were written, you can possibly understand a god ordering a mass extermination. That was the way warfare and intertribal disputes were handled in that day and in that social context. As Carl nicely put it; we see something of the same attitude today reflected in some Muslim fundamentalist communities whose scriptures are soaked in the language of the OT.

Some on this thread seem to think I am slanderous. I think to accuse what most people would believe to be the appropriate character of a god of the sort of genocide we see witnessed in the OT is, to my mind, slanderous to such a perfect Being.

 

This is my final post on this matter.

The discussion has been good.

Thank you all!

 

Unfortunately, this is a growing trend in the world of Christianity -- man judging God by man's rules.

We are really left with a simple choice: If the Bible is NOT the literal & infallible Word of God then we are left to our own devices to define God and His nature (Yes, I know that is exactly where we are headed). What a dangerous concept.

If the Bible IS the Word of God then we must accept all of it. And we as mortals are left to attempt to reconcile the actions of the Almighty within our very limited context of understanding.

God judges behavior, not a popular statement these days. Everyone wants to go thier own way, do what feels good, be bound by no judgment on moral behavior ---- BUT then justify it by redefining God into a diety that supports (or at the minimum does not condemn) the behavior.

God has in the past (and will most likely in the future) judge entire groups of people, if not nations. This is the message fundalmentlist have been preaching for years. It is consistent with God's nature. We cannot simply sing God is love and go happily along while pornography, abortion, homosexuality, divorce, teenage pregnancy, murder, sexaul perversion, etc., etc., etc. eat away at our societal base.

As a pastor it is frustrating to see so many redefine God to make Him fit into the world they define. If one does not want to bound by the rules of God, then simply state I don't believe in God and move on.

The verses in 1Sam15 will be disturbing to those who have an everchanging view of God. For those of who believe God is eternal, unchanging, and not self-causing, these verses are not problematic. I may not understand everything about them, but I know in my heart, without any doubt, they are true, right, and just.

From the movie "Rudy": After 20 years of ecclesiastical study I have come up with only two irrefutable truths: There is a God and I am not Him.

 

Wrong!
God's plan for rebuilding the temple will happen with or without my support of Israel. God is not bound by the actions of men. I support Israel because God promised blessing upon those who bless Israel. It is simple.

Also, the return of Christ will save the nation of Israel, not destroy it. John tells us the number converted in heaven is too many to count, not to mention the 144,000 who will witness to the world. Where in scripture do you read that Christ's return will bring about the destruction of the Jews?

 

I have yet to see an errant passage in the Bible. We'll have to agree to disagree.