Inauguration Benediction Concludes in JESUS NAME!

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by Guest, Jan 20, 2005.

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  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I think you have read enough of my posts to know, Bill, that I support full civil rights for everyone--gays, straights; Christians, non-Christians; whites, blacks; men, women, etc.

    You have the same rights I have. You actually have more rights, as a non-Christian in America, than I would have as a Christian in a Muslim nation. The difference, however, between non-Christians in America and Christians in Muslim nations, is that I would respect the Muslim majority and recognize that religion as the the majority religion.

    I would not try to change or challenge the Muslim majority or the Jewish majority (in Israel) or the Hindu (India) majority or the Buddhist (Thialand) majority if I lived in the country of each respective faith. Unlike non-Christians in America who constantly challenge the majority faith.
     
  2. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Hi Bill my fellow Amurrican:

    Not all Christians accept the idolatrous "Christian nation" myth. Frankly, it is as offensive to me as the Democrats' "Jesusland" and "Dumbf*ckistan" cartoons--maybe even more so, since it is a chillul ha-Shem (bringing the name of God--and the faith--into disrepute). God (the real One) said in the Ten Suggestions, oops, the Ten Therapies, "You shall have no other gods before Me." That includes secularism-as-religion, the religious-right, gay liberation, homophobia, Christian nation, hypersensitive atheism, abortion-as-sacrament, abortion-as-only-objectionable-violence, ecumania/civil religion, tame preachers in Caesar's service, and other assorted lares and penates in these so-called latter days.

    Your pal, Janko
     
  3. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Quibble

    As an aside, while she represents justice, isn't the blindfolded, sword wielding goddess actually named "Themis"?

    -=Steve=-
     
  4. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I don't use the term "Christian nation" in any theocratic sense. We are a nation of Christians and Christianity is the majority nation. If we wanted to play around with logic, I guess we could eventually conclude we are a "Christian nation" but I understand what you mean and certainly know your post is not a semantical argument.
     
  5. jugador

    jugador New Member

    The god of war? W? ;)
     
  6. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Don't worry Unk. My remarks were directed at a particular religio-political faction, not at Christians in general.

    You know, participating on Degreeinfo is kind of a cultural revelation to me. (And more than a little unsettling.) I live in Silicon Valley, where most people are very secular, where there are large numbers of immigrants bringing with them every religion on earth, and where many people are spiritual seekers of one sort or another. Conservative evangelicals/fundamentalists certainly exist around here, but they are just another piece of the religious mosaic and don't come anywhere close to dominating it.

    So when I read remarks from what appear to be religious-right voices in the South, it's more culturally foreign to me than when I read posts by our Canadian or British colleagues. I mean San Jose is much more similar to Toronto or London in a lot of ways than it is to Selma or Montgomery.

    I don't know how Biblical Christianity could be made normative for the nation as a whole without completely repelling places like California and the urban Northeast. I wonder if pushing it too hard might even alienate a lot of the red-state coalition that elected Bush, especially the more libertarian and moderate elements of the Republican party. The danger of religious-right over-reaching and hubris is real right now.

    It's ironic.

    I consider myself a political moderate and independent. But I've drifted rightward over the years, in part in reaction to all the self-satisfied political-correctness that infests the Bay Area. In other words, what pushed me to the right wasn't the arguments of the right so much as it was the over-the-top and slightly crazy rhetoric of the left.

    But all of this political Christianity is kind of a wakeup call to me. If anything pushes me back into the paternal arms of the Democrats, it will be religious right hubris all decked out in Republican dress.

    I mean, if I have a choice between two visions of America, one a secular state in which religious belief is a private matter of individual choice and conscience, the other a "Christian nation" where one particular faith is normative and those like myself who deviate are only accepted on sufferance, then my choice is clear and obvious.
     
  7. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    SteveF: As an aside, while she represents justice, isn't the blindfolded, sword wielding goddess actually named "Themis"?

    Nosborne: No, except at the master's level. At the doctoral level, she's called "Dissertationis".

    Actually, I don't know. I was quoting Rumpole and everyone KNOWS he squeaked through Oxford with a dubious Third in Law...
     
  8. Two Americas...

    I think there is a new "two Americas" theme here.

    One America (sadly, a large majority) who believe in things they cannot prove, whose religious institutions have a sordid history of oppression and slaughter and have only recently reformed, and who base decisions of tremendous import upon fantasy, fiction, and mythology

    AND

    Another America (small in numbers, but intelligent and motivated) that bases its decisions upon logic and evidence, whose predecessors have suffered and even been killed for the cause of religious freedom and tolerance, and who believe in things they can see, touch, smell, and otherwise measure.

    Maybe John Edwards will pick this up next time around? What are the chances?
     
  9. chrislarsen

    chrislarsen New Member

    As a confessional Lutheran, I certainly hope than any of my coreligionists present refrained from praying during this Caesar-sponsored ecumenical "benediction."

    We categorically reject state sponsorship of religion and do not engage in eucharistic or prayer fellowship with Christians with whom we are not in complete doctrinal agreement, following not only Scriptural precept but the invariable practice of the patristic church.

    The grace of God is not in the gift of the State.

    ==============================

    Uncle Janko

    Are you LCMS or WELS? I seem to remember that you are WELS but my rapidly aging grey cells ain't what they used to be. I am Orthodox not Lutheran but I understand your concerns about the fruits of Ecumenism.
     
  10. chrislarsen

    chrislarsen New Member

    Another America (small in numbers, but intelligent and motivated) that bases its decisions upon logic and evidence, whose predecessors have suffered and even been killed for the cause of religious freedom and tolerance, and who believe in things they can see, touch, smell, and otherwise measure.
    ==================

    Many christians like things they can see and feel, taste and touch. These are things like incense, icons, chanting, the bread and wine of the Eucharist that mystically become the Body and Blood of Christ. Well since I am Orthodox I could not resist : ) On a more serious note, Christianity and Humanism are both based on different sets of philosophocal presuppositions. Christianity is, in its essense, a religion of paradox. A paradox by its nature can not be understood with reason alone. Instead it is meant to be celebrated and meditated upon. However, these perspectives need not clash and they need not be opposed to each other. Indeed, to judge Humanism by the standards of Christianity or to judge Christianity (or any religion for that matter) by humanism would be a disservice to both!
     
  11. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Two Americas...

    I actually think he will be the nominee.
     
  12. paynedaniel

    paynedaniel New Member

    re:

    America cannot be called a Christian nation at present. Given, at it's founding, there was significant Christian influence, but presently, it's no more Christian (authentically) than Britain despite polls on belief in hell and the virgin birth.

    Peace,
    Daniel
     
  13. Guest

    Guest Guest

    The initial post called attention to the use of Jesus name in the inaugural benediction. After reading subsequent responses, it is interesting how people react to the name of Jesus.
     
  14. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Actually, the LCMS which is not as conservative as the Wisc group, brought their President (or another pastor up on charges of synrectism) for praying with other pastors at a major prayer service after 9-11.

    The LCMS at one point had a proposal to have what amounted to orthodoxy police who would go from congregation to congregation.

    The LCMS went after one pastor who performed a wedding service for his niece with his brother who was an ELCA (Lutheran Pastor).

    One has to appreciate the LCMS and Wisc. Synod Lutheran's tenacious adherence to their beliefs.

    I happen to disagree with what I consider to be extremist and almost pharasitical stances of some of the groups but this is America and they have a right to their own variety of Christianity.


    North
     
  15. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    A Toast: the President of the United States

    Gentlemen! Let us drink the health of slave and mistress!

    George Walker Bush: may he be preserved in health and granted wisdom; may he exercise the powers delegated to him by the sovereign People with proper deference to his superior; may he ever be obedient to the great and good Constitution of these States, and free from faction in the unseasonable fury of his foes and the unreasoning zeal of his friends. Gentlemen, I give you the President of the United States!

    The Union: may she be preserved in her proper station as mistress and no man's slave; may she be ever subject to the law of Nature and of Nature's God; may she court no man's favor, brook no servant's insolence, repose upon no injustice, and crush royalism at home and tyranny abroad beneath her heel. May she prosper in liberty, or perish! Gentlemen, I give you our Mistress, the Great Republic!
     
  16. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    To North

    .
     
  17. BinkWile

    BinkWile New Member

    Why would he? He's Jewish. I would have found it more interesting if he had done so in Vishnu's name.
     
  18. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Why would a false god interest you? Maybe you should pray to Siva to destroy all false gods, including himself. :D
     
  19. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Stop pretending to be clueless, Russell.

    Nobody on this thread has had much of anything to say about the name 'Jesus'. I remarked in my first post that a Christian clergyman could be expected to offer a Christian benediction, so references to Jesus in his prayer were to be expected. I find nothing remarkable or controversial in that.

    The subsequent argument, such as it is, concerns the political meaning that certain people attach to that Christian reference.

    Why did YOU find a Christian clergyman referring to Jesus in a prayer noteworthy enough to justify an entire thread to discuss it?
     
  20. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    Carl_Reginstein says "Jesus Schmeezus"?

    It has been my experience that talking about religion is fine. Nobody really gets upset... until... the name of the Lord Jesus Christ is invoked -- then people start getting upset. :rolleyes:

    But those same people will probably be very upset when the Lord Jesus Christ returns in the clouds of heaven to seize control of this earth. :eek:

    Even so, come Lord Jesus!!! :)
     

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