Hypothetical question about CA State approved DBA.

My opinion is that if one is thinking of consulting with an attorney to see if a potential degree is legal then the answer has already been discovered. That is get an accredited degree. Even if an unaccredited degree happens to be legal at this point in time, it may not be legal next year if one's state tightens up against unaccredited degrees. This is the apparent trend in state laws over the past few years.

 

EXACTLY!

 

Rather than pursue a degree of questionable acceptance and use I would recommend a second masters - either complimentary to your first masters or in a totally different field (hobby or other interest for example).

 

Thanks, but I'm working on my third Masters already, so that isn't really an option.

You start to get into this on-line degree stuff as a hobby, it is interesting, affordable if you go slowly, and you learn stuff.

I'm really curios about a school like CPU, but of course don't want to do anything stupid and put myself in a bad situation.

My wife points out that I have pretty much blown my budget on Masters, so she is not really sympathetic to a real full blown PHD, but I could probably talk her into another couple grand, which these CA approved schools tend to cost.

Also, I honestly am not looking for yet another credential, which is another reason they look interesting.

I'm going to think about this some...

Thanks for the meaningful dialog......

 

I wouldn't worry so much about defending the unaccredited degree in front of "stupid" colleagues. Intelligent colleagues understand the value of such degrees to explore new domains, and as long as you don't misrepresent the degree, you're safe. You've demonstrated the sincerest form of scholarship -- no real financial gain. Besides, you're going to have to deal colleagues who bring agendas and bias about any school you attend. There is a pecking order no matter where you get in it.

I think the real issue is the legal precedence behind any current laws against using unaccredited degrees outside accredited universities. Also, as Bill Huffman mentioned above, what will be the future changes in laws, if any, that make the situation more restrictive? Note that because of interstate commerce, it is difficult for states to pass laws that nullify laws in other states in all domains, and have them stick in the courts. You never want to get to court, but that's the skinny. The federal government will have to take action for unaccredited degrees to be definitively unusable. It might or might not happen. Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer.

Still, as I have mentioned before, the California Pacific University (CPU) DBA is very usuable for contexts outside teaching at a regionally accredited university; just make sure you don't mind doing all the work of a regular doctorate. I use the CPU DBA in corporate training, writing whitepapers, and for dinner reservations... Also, I think having it under my belt really helped in the coursework for my Ph.D. program (as I'm in the dissertation stage) and it might have helped establish the relationship with my current committee (it meant that I'm serious as a heart attack about finishing).

You are welcome to PM me with questions if you like.

Best wishes,

Dave

 

With all due respect to the poster who said something to the effect of:

The statute says so, therefore it's cut-and-dried...

...it may not actually be that clear-cut.

I don't know about this particular statute, but I have worked in law offices, and I can say for certain that what the statute superficially says is one thing, what the law actually means and how it's applied is often another thing entirely.

I would search the case law that has interpreted this 1005.02 before I made any absolutist statements about the validity or invalidity of Cal state approved DBAs in Florida. The courts may have addressed this very issue and said something to the effect of "Hey, this wasn't the legislative intent here, to bar a gal from claiming a Cal-State approved degree that isn't a requisite for practicing in her given field (like doctor, lawyer, psychiatirst, psychologist, et. al.), so this doesn't violate the law." Maybe so, maybe not, I don't know...

...but one thing I do know for dead fire certain is that a layman can't just look at the wording of the law and say: "See, told ya; it says what it says." I know enough about the legal system from rubbing shoulders with lawyers to know that.

I'll bet the Nosborne 48 lawyer guy would back this up.

 

I acknowledged that I earned the CPU DBA and am aware of its utility relative to regionally accredited degrees, and that such utility may vary from individual to individual. I have a CA State approved doctorate and am working on regionally accredited doctorate for teaching. My dean realizes how I'm trained and is eagerly awaiting my finishing of the RA doctorate so I officially count in the totals reported to the accreditors. You phrase everything in the negative with no greater experience than I have. From extensive personal experience I tell that most people don't care, if you state up front what the degree is and why you earned it. They just don't care. Other people may have a different experience, but that has been my experience.

Yes, Simon, a large meteor may strike the Earth in the future, too, and snuff out all life. It is possible. Anything is possible. You state the obvious about the improbable with such force that the improbable seems possible but probably not...

Dave

 

You're mistaken, Simon. Re-read the thread carefully. I provided details of the content of the degree.

That's called a non-sequitur. Did I say it did? I also didn't give an opinion on the VP accidentially shooting his friend. So what?

Perhaps it is time for you to present your research on the enforcement of the Florida statute; that would be interesting to read.

And you are not biased? I didn't recommend or not recommend the degree; I simply gave an evaluation of the utility and legality of the degree, in my opinion.

Simon, you are the one who is questioning everybody's motives and dispensing legal advice. Are you trying to pick a fight? Are you a licensed attorney? If you have an expert legal opinion, please provide it.

Thanks,

Dave

 

It would be interesting to see the case law on this, to understand how the law is being enforced.

 

Sigh.

Sam I Am is correct to this extent:

One of the serious criticisms of the common law system is that the law is not easily accessible to persons lacking legal training. Indeed, such persons can be seriously mislead by the "plain text" of a statute or constitutional provision.
We see this a lot with pro se litigants and so-called constitutionalists.

However, it is the lawyer's business to read the text in the context of the rest of the law and arrive at an opinion of what the law actually is and how a Court might decide a case under certain facts.

I am a lawyer but I am not a Florida attorney. It would take me many hours to arrive at anything like a legal opinion and even then, I would recommend consulting a Florida lawyer before acting on it.

I will hazard this much: The statute's "plain meaning" may run counter to certain federal constitutional guarantees of free expression and association. (And maybe not.) This does not mean that I think the statute is unconstitutional; it merely means that the Courts may "read into" the plain text whatever exceptions and restrictions are necessary to narrow the statute's application and thereby render it constitutional.

The result would be that the plain text isn't plain.

It is a common statement among lawyers that, when faced with a new statute, we don't know what it REALLY means until there are some Court cases interpreting it.

 

Have there been any Court cases interpreting it? Does anyone know?

 

DAVE: You're mistaken, Simon. Re-read the thread carefully. I provided details of the content of the degree.

SIMON: You are right. I apologize.

DAVE: That's called a non-sequitur. Did I say it did? I also didn't give an opinion on the VP accidentially shooting his friend. So what?

SIMON: You are engaging in double and meta talk, no more, no less. You are shooting from the hip without having performed one iota of research or fact finding including discussing this matter with any officials in Florida. I have. If you did it would add credibility to your position. WHEN and IF you do we will be able to have a relevant and meaningful discussion about this topic. So far you haven't and merely presenting your "evaluations" of this matter in no way substitutes for facts that may support your position!

DAVEerhaps it is time for you to present your research on the enforcement of the Florida statute; that would be interesting to read.

SIMON: Based on your statement above regarding enforcement of this statute in Florida, the gist of your position is becoming very clear; attempting to get over with an unaccredited degree in the state of Florida!

Throughout this thread I am the only one who performed fact finding research and shared this information with posters on this and the main forum. Perhaps it is time for you to cease shooting from the hip advising people to take major risks based on your experiences and "evaluation' and do the research that you are asking others to do for you. You have stated that I am overblowing the risk of using unaccredited degrees in Florida and that the risk is not so great So, now prove it with data that is verifiable and credible other than more pontificating based on your personal opinions and experiences! We are waiting!

DAVE: And you are not biased? I didn't recommend or not recommend the degree; I simply gave an evaluation of the utility and legality of the degree, in my opinion.

SIMON: More double talk! In fact you did recommend this degree by a number of statements that implied that there is nothing wrong with obtaining an unaccredited degree from California as follows: "Still as I have mentioned before, the CPU DBA is very usable for contexts outside teaching at a regionally accredited university" and " You should be fine if you list the DBA showing that it is is a CA approved not RA. Moreover you could list the doctoral program at CPU stating what the institution is. Still you could list the number of credits you have completed there. Some options".

Furthermore, you are giving your "evaluation" about such a significant matter such as this without one iota of verifiable data to support your position. Nothing wrong with offering an opinion. However, relating to another poster that he can use this degree using your recommended strategies in a state that prohibits such degrees is outrageously risky at the expense of another poster not yourself! It reminds me of the view of the well known General George Patton of World War two fame. He was called Old Guts and Glory. Your guts, his glory!

DAVE: Simon, you are the one who is questioning everybody's motives and dispensing legal advice. Are you trying to pick a fight? Are you a licensed attorney? If you have an expert legal opinion, please provide it.

SIMON: No my double talking friend you have it in reverse! I have researched this matter to the best of my ability as a fellow poster and in good faith shared my findings with the posters of this forum. Nothing I stated is "legal advise" but information I obtained directly from the source. Neither is it written in stone and IF you or any other poster find any additional information (not your "evaluations" posing as fact) that demonstrates that there are circumstances or ways of using an unaccredited degrees in Florida legally, safely and without consequences I would be very interested and open to hear it.

In fact, I would welcome a sharing of relevant FACTS. However, the only feedback you have provided is based on meta talk and throwing the onus on others of proving their point while you continue to engage in double talk in the safety of another state with absolutely no relevance to the current discussion relating specifically to Florida.

Furthermore, the only poster who dispensed legal advise is YOU as evidenced by examples of your statements I posted above advising another poster how to use an unaccredited degree in a state of Florida where it is illegal to do so!

SIMON

 

Yes, it would be "interesting" dlady. So due to the fact that this thread was initiated by you and the decision you make may have a significant impact on YOUR achieving (or not achieving) future career and life goals don't you think that you should be more actively involved in researching this matter rather than engaging in idle speculation? As a suggestion why don't you consider the possiblity of contacting significant others in Florida in the appropriate Florida governmental offices and possibily an attorney, obtaining their input regarding this matter and then if you wish sharing your findings with us? Good luck! Simon

 

Incorrect, etc. You're stating the same incorrect observations over and over again with more certainty each time. Take a look at Nosborne's post; good stuff as usual. Also, you might ask yourself if there is possibility that you could be wrong in your conclusions. The search for knowledge starts with a question. Have a good Friday. I will.

Thanks,

Dave

 

So simon you are saying that with all your filibustering, you don't know?

Oh, I thought you were an authority on the matter.

Okay, well, thanks to everyone for the conversations and feedback, this has given me some stuff to think about!

I should be getting their catalog in a couple days, which will help me make this decision.

If any other information pops up, I'll be sure to share.

DEL

 

Re: Sigh.

Excellent points.

From what I learned the Florida state legislature appears to have been within its "rights/powers" to maintain this statute indicating that unaccredited degrees were illegal and punishable as a crime within Florida regardless of the fact that the Florida Supreme Court recommended specific modifications of this ruling.

As I note previously I believe that if anyone wished to 'test" this statute it would be prudent to consult with a Florida attorney prior to committing themselves to an unaccredited doctoral degree program.