HERRIOT-WATT MBA info from actual graduate

and . . .

Hi Gregg,

Thought I'd throw a minor spanner into these works -- for teaching positions at universities in the Middle East, they require transcripts sent from the applicant's university (where they graduated, of course), as well as the original diploma. Heck, some schools even want the diploma authenticated (i.e., notarized, then by the State, then the U.S. State Dept.).

Do I know why? I could better answer the question of Why is the sky blue?

Cheers,
Adrienne

 

I would have sandwiched it between two pieces of glass or plexiglas (I started to say "laminated," but it occurs to me that there may come a day when one might want to hold the original in one's hand and/or inspect it for authenticity) and affixed it somehow onto the back of the frame so that it could be easily found by anyone willing to take the whole thing down off the wall, turn it over, and view it. Again, in my scenario (and, clearly, oxpecker's, too) there's no attempt to defraud or mislead, and having the original available on the flip side for those who question it is one way to demonstrate that.

Okay, at the risk of turning this into a big, ol', ugly effective commercial for diplomasandmore.com (which is not my intention, but that as an unintended result may, at this point, be unavoidable), how is the gold seal and the signatures handled in a situation like that?

Oxpecker's phrase, "wouldnt' be acceptable" doesn't even begin to cover it, in my opinion. Lest anyone reading this thread think that I don't know were are any of the relevant ethical boundaries, let me say, categorically, that I'm not suggesting that the new diploma should ever be passed-off as the original in any situation where doing or not doing such a thing could actually matter in any material way. That really would be unethical, and I'm not proposing anything even remotely like that, here.

 

You're assuming that anyone would find it questionable. How many people out there even realize there's anything aesthetically substandard about UK diplomas and would, therefore, notice that this one wasn't? Maybe if the new diploma were used in the UK where everyone knows they all look crappy... sure! But in the U.S., where most diplomas look pretty spiffy, I dare say no one would be the wiser. And if the new diploma -- the "prettied-up" one, as you called it (not a bad description, by the way, I'm just making sure its properly attributed) -- contained the notice I specified above, why would the person do the heuristically-illogical leap-frog over the integrity of full disclosure in order to (at that point, go out of their way to) find fault with the fact that it was prettied-up?

Okay, that was pretty good. Point, Tony.

And could mean the difference between getting their business and not getting it, let's not forget that. People, when they're sitting in a man's office (or a woman's; no sexism intended here), look around it and make judgements about him (her) that they don't even realize they're making. They notice what's on his/her shelves and hanging on their walls -- the nicknacks and other stuff with which one surrounds oneself and betray telling things about his/her interests and values -- and they make judgements. They notice if he/she is wearing wool or polyester. They notice if his/her cuticles are pushed back and/or if he/she is a nailbiter -- often without even realizing that they're accumulating images and categorizing them and allowing them, collectively, to make some kind of impression. Those who don't treat it as a show -- almost literally -- and who don't act accordingly, lose business and don't even know why. People seeing a UK diploma that looks like it was printed on a laser printer with a leaky toner cartridge on recycled paper (I know it's not that bad, but I'm makin' a point, here... leave me alone) are more likely to be hurt, somehow, by that small moment in time than they are to be helped. Trust me. A heuristic approach to decision making? Yep, no big surprise here, most decisions are made this way, usually without our even being aware of it. (Hey... why does that sound familiar?)

Again, the question assumes that the viewer had some way of knowing the latter. I dare say it would never happen -- at least not in the U.S.

Ugh! Perish the thought.

Objection, your honor! Relevance.

We're not talking about government-issued documents, here. Such documents (as a state-issued CPA license, for example... or currency, now that I think about it) are an entirely different class of both testamur and imprimatur which should never be f__ked-with by persons wishing to avoid incarceration. Diplomas, though I sometimes think those in academia wish it weren't so, clearly do not enjoy, as a matter of law, any such protections or the potential for criminal sanctions against those who merely disrespect them -- again, much to the chagrin of academe who seem to have elevated them to the level of a sacrament.

Hmm. Well-intended advice, of course, but advice I'm inclined to dismiss, I think (and, mind you, I'm still thinking, so I might later change my mind). I'm still having trouble understanding why it's not okay to "pretty up," as you call it, a substandard-looking diploma that can only hurt me by my allowing it to hang on my wall and leave people (who are used to seeing pretty U.S. diplomas) actively unimpressed to the point that maybe they won't do business with me, but who will never dare tell me why. A UK institution that doesn't get that doesn't get to hurt me (albeit unintentionally) in that way over here in the U.S. You know, the Brits don't much care what their teeth look like either, but that won't fly in the U.S., will it? (Okay, okay... I shouldn't have said that last one. Please... no nasty cards and letters. Notwithstanding its lack of political correctness, it makes the aesthetics point, pointedly, does it not? And that was my intent. So let's move on.)

Okay... wait a minute, it almost sounds like we're not so far apart after all. Lemmee keep reading...

So, then, maybe what's really sticking in your craw is that ethically-challenged companies like diplomasandmore.com are involved -- a sentiment, incidentally, which I completely understand.

Though you begin this sentence with "in other words," it's really saying something else.

The first thing I've quoted you saying, above, states that you have no problem, essentially, with facsimiles (my word) of diplomas hanging on people's walls -- and, though you didn't say it, I'm guessing you might be willing add to that: "for the purpose of them being more impressive than the original, if said original actually had a problem appearace, as UK diplomas do," no?

The second thing I've quoted you saying, above, is the "but," and states, in essence, that it's especially irritating, however, when said facsimiles are produced by those whom we despise (and for very good and justifiable reasons, I should point out).

It's the implied logic of the third thing I've quoted you saying, above, that's got me scratching my head. Coupled with the quoted item before it, you're saying in the third that even if there is a valid original diploma to back-up the prettied-up one (I'm starting to actually like that term, Tony... thanks), it's nevertheless counterfeit -- seemingly by virtue of who produced it. If so, it begs the obvious question: Does the fact that a faithful (at least in terms of content, if not paper and fonts and other aesthetic elements) reproduction of a diploma -- which you seem to be saying you have no categorical problem with people hanging on their walls as long as it's not misleading anyone -- suddenly become tainted when one learns that it's been produced by one of the "bad" guys?

If so, then, look, I'm not saying I don't understand the sentiment. It rubs me the wrong way, too. But when it comes right down to it, why does who actually, physically produced it matter as long as its production had the oversight of the degree-holder, himself to ensure that its content does not misrepresent either the degree or the institution that issued it? Other than that we hate to see such businesses get anyone's money, how is having the likes of diplomasandmore.com print the otherwise factually-accurate facsimile differ from having a more reputable local printer do it?

 

Thought to self: Spanner? Uh, oh. So, like... I'm gonn'a get really yelled at around here for my Brits and their teeth remark, aren't I? Crap!

I rarely argue with thoroughness, especially when it's intended to eliminate (and, in fact, succeeds in eliminating) all arguments even before they are made; but not if such thoroughness approaches being oppressive. I'm not sure that what you describe is oppressive... I'm just sayin'.

But I'm having trouble seeing why it's a monkey wren... er... I mean spanner in the works. When I suggested hanging a prettied-up UK diploma on one's wall, I never meant that one should then throw away one's original -- for precisely times such as that which you describe.

Really? Cool! So... like... what's up with the whole blue sky thing, anyway? (Kidding... don't answer that.)

 

Krispy Kreme. Mmmm...

Oh... sorry... you were saying...

Whim? Hey! I'll have you know.... er... um... uhhhh...

[Distracted pause]

You know, I had my first Krispy Kreme original glazed I-can't-tell-you-how-many years ago in one of the oldest, original Krispy Kreme locations in the country... in Cleveland... or maybe Akron, I believe it was. I can't say for certain, but I don't believe I ever went to a Dunkin Donuts again after that. And that's really sayin' something since one of my grade school friends' parents owned a Dunkin Donuts franchise not far from where I grew up and for pretty much all of my childhood and into early adulthood that was the only kind of doughnut I ever knew. Now, I see, Dunkin Donuts seems to be more into coffee, so it looks like maybe I'm not the only person who had that same kind of Krispy Kreme reaction. They really are amazing, aren't they? So good they sort of make one want to grind 'em up and hang 'em in an IV bottle or somethin'. No kidding.

[Dreamy pause]

I'm sorry... what were we talking about, again?


__________________
Gregg L. DesElms

Veritas nihil veretur nisi abscondi.
Veritas nimium altercando amittitur.

 

No. Although one of the reasons for purchasing the examples I mentioned (such as engraved, embossed or resin embedded copies of a diploma) might be that they may be more impressive or esthetically pleasing, preservation and safekeeping of the originals, and the desire to display the documents in more than one location, are frequently more compelling reasons. Moreover, these kinds of reproductions, in very fundamental ways, differ from those purchased from an entity such as diplomasandmore.com. First, the examples I provided are indeed facsimiles in that they are exact copies or reproductions of the original. Second, it is quite obvious that they are indeed copies or reproductions and not stand-ins or surrogates trying to pass themselves off as originals.

Not exactly. My point was that entities such as diplomasandmore do not make facsimiles; they make counterfeits. As their web site sates, the design of their diplomas, “does not duplicate or reproduce diplomas from legitimate schools.“ They are very clear that what they are selling are “fake documents.” In fact, diplomasandmore.com’s home page, in just two small paragraphs, employs the term “fake” a total of seventeen times.

I have no problem with an actual copy of a document, especially when it is extremely clear and obvious that it is a reproduction. I do have a problem with counterfeit documents, especially those that can be used to mislead and defraud others.

And I also have a problem with the term “prettied-up,” as it implies that the document is authentic and only esthetic elements have been changed. Interestingly, however, many legitimate schools (usually through a third party vendor), for an additional fee, do indeed offer their diplomas in a “prettied-up” version. The diplomas are framed or presented in a leather portfolio, additional plaques and photos or emblems affixed, etc.

The few entities that are indeed making faithful reproductions (and diplomasandmore.com isn't one of them) without approval from the original issuing institution are breaking the law. In fact, that is the primary reason most of these entities market "fake" diplomas and those that have been embellished in some way with the disclaimer that they are "novelty items."

However, that is precisely the point; the counterfeit document does misrepresent both the degree and the institution that issued it. For example, most of these entities use fictitious names (and signatures) instead of the correct names of the institution’s officials. The few counterfeiters that use the correct names and titles are exposing themselves to charges of forgery.

Once again, they are not printing a “factually-accurate facsimile;” they are printing counterfeits. Moreover, whether the purchaser actually earned the original degree is just as irrelevant as a counterfeiter seeing no problem producing a one hundred dollar bill because he or she actually owns a real one.

 

Oh, dear, I do this all the time. I'm actually not British, although after years of interacting with mostly British colleagues, many 'Britishisms' have found their way into my written vocab, which I use unconsciously. Hmm, let's see, how about throwin' a stubby crow-foot wrench into that thar bidnez! Will that do for a gal born in 'Bama and raised in Georgia?

(And, for the record, I don't speak with a southern accent, unless on the phone to my mother -- think dripping Scarlett O'Hara drawl from her -- where it seems to come out as a reaction to hers, or after a few glasses of wine.)

Erm, it's redundant, in my view. Why need the diploma (esp. through that god-awful authentication process, which is a whole nother rant) when you've got the durn transcripts? Unfortunately, it's a Ministry requirement, so there's nothing I can do personally in my HR dept. about it. Bleah.

True, you didn't. But you had mentioned that no one ever (later amended to almost never) asks for the diploma, only transcripts.

Hmm, I think I'll check with my 8 year old nephew on this one -- I'm sure he knows!

Cheers,
Adrienne

 

First off, Gregg, I understand you're point concerning the subtle clues that could unconsciously (or sub/semi consciously) influence how a client is going to react. It is basically the same point I was trying to make. And you may be right that, in general, your hypothetical scenario is more likely to happen. Still, it is my opinion that you are overly pessimistic about potential reactions to a less than beautiful diploma, and overly discounting the potential harm that could come from the negative image earned if someone did know the diploma was not issued by the school in question. I feel that in a gray area such as this, it is better to take a conservative approach that will never be questioned by anyone. The fact that (at least) a few posters here think this would be a questionable practice seems to be suggestive of how some prospective clients would feel. Further, there is a risk of long-term damage to a person's reputation (fair or not), especially if the type of business is close-knit, incestuous, or very niche. With that said, I understand that you disagree with my assessment and believe that the possible rewards are much greater than any possible risks. I can accept that.

Maybe we can approach this from a different direction. CALIFORNIA CODES, EDUCATION CODE SECTION 32380-32385 is interesting in that it seems to deal with the issue being discussed in this thread. From my admittedly laymans interpretation, a couple of things jump out at me.
First off, in section 32381, it reads

It then list what constitutes "school authority", and adds this disclaimer.

Personal use seems relevant here, especially in light of what comes a little later.
Section 32382 reads

And in section 32383 reads

I think this might answer at least a couple of your questions, namely, why it is not okay to pretty-up a diploma and (especially) why it does matter who physically produced it.

Of course, you may have a different opinion on what these sections mean. I am sincerely interested in your interpretation.

Tony

 

I don't know if this is true--but I heard that if you do not attend graduation, you get a less impressive diploma. Mine is beautiful---as good as any other I've seen. (I attended graduation.)

Other comments: The cited link also discusses "pedagogy". I have to tell you I learned more from HW courses than from any other distance course. I have taken weekend lectures (Nova), online courses (UoP, Capella), and I find most of the lecturing and interaction a waste of time. Also, I can still remember most of the HW courses and material--although 6 or more years have passed--whereas other courses I hardly remember.

So, I think HW has a good model, and a nice diploma to boot...