Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Tom Head, Feb 12, 2001.
Of course that should be "Programmes"
One other option might be the University of London (http://www.lon.ac.uk/external) and its exam-based MBA in international business, done in conjunction with Royal Roads (whatever the heck that is).
I'd think Heriot-Watt would be accepted in Germany, though; it's a royally chartered Scottish university founded sometime around the middle of the 19th century. Then again, a guy swore to me last year that a degree from my regionally accredited alma mater (Regents/Excelsior) wouldn't be accepted in Germany, so I dunno.
This guy was right about Excelsior, it will surely not be accepted in Germany, I checked all this stuff out in the last week -
I talked to my State Authority for Further Education about this topic, and I really seems like we do just accept MBA from the Major Accreditors (AACSB for the U.S., AMBA, FIBAA for European programs and a few others), but not only regionally-accredited program from Non-State-Universities (which means that we WOULD accept a university like UCLA, Berkeley, etc., though those are not professionally, and only regionally accredited, but they are public/state universities, and therefore "known" in Germany - sounds a bit confusing, but that´s the way it is (I guess we Germans are OVER-concerned about people trying to bring scam/fraud degrees into our country...)).
All in all, I guess I will have to search for an MBA program that is either AACSB or from a non-private university... ;(
Actually, what I truly DISLIKE about all those AACSB programs is that they all seem to have Finance and Accounting in their Core subjects (I HATE this stuff) - does anyone know programs where you can leave those out? (no matter about any Management or even Economics subject, but please no accounting / finance... )?
Heriot-Watt, as is common with most European programs, is a one-year full-time equivalent program whereas most of the "better" US programs are two years (although a Heriot-Watt MBA with a specialization requires extra courses which would make a very full year). Incidently, I have had a RA school evaluate HW MBA courses at 6 credit hours which would equal 54 credits non-major or 66 with a specialization (i.e. 2 year equivalent). I don't know what the average completion time is but I would not be surprised if it is about 3 years (many students have transfer credits which ease the load).
The program is very difficult... I have never heard anyone who has taken a course indicate otherwise... this includes professionals who already have graduated from some of the better schools in the land.
I don't know much about Warwick (I believe they have a residency requirement). I would be very cautious with the University of London. HW has spent a lot of money on development DL materials... the materials are written to help compensate for the lack of interaction you have in a traditional classroom. I don't believe this is the case with the UoL. The UoL model is typically a list of "off-the-shelf" text books and a date for the final exam (a very slight exaggeration only).
Likely at least part of the assesment was based on ten courses = MBA. This seems to be very variable depending on who does hte assessment (some have complained [either here or on AED] that the HW MBA was not assessed to be equivalent to an american MBA by some University here.
Yep, 8 days per phase (for the first 3 phases). No residency for the thesis stage. Even with the residency, I think I might do it--I dont NEED the MBA (I have a PhD already) so for me the choice of school is, perhaps more than most older students, dependent on University reputation.
The degrees from Excelsior are not accepted in Germany. Those from Regents (USNY) were not accepted either.
There are several reasons. For example:
Excelsior/Regents College is far from traditional. It is rather an evaluator.
Some curricula are insufficiently structured (liberal arts).
Some curricula are not taught in European universities. Nursing, for example. It is not considered an academic subject.
The problem of the credit-by-examination.
There is a German idiosyncrasy with respect to this problem. I can understand that the German authorities consider a degree from Excelsior not equivalent to a German degree. On the other hand, it is difficult to understand the reason why people aren't allowed to lead the title, to write B.A. (Excelsior) on their calling card, for example. Written that way, the danger of confusion is little.
The rules are going to be changed; cf. the website of the Kultusministerkonferenz.
Thanks for the response. So the problem is the nontraditional nature of Excelsior and not that it needs to be from a state supported school as triggersoft noted. I am glad to hear that change is coming because the requirments for the Excelsior liberal arts concentrations do mirror those of traditional U.S. universities. This is why many Excelsior (Regents/USNY) grads are typically able to go on to graduate school at the U.S. College of their choice.
John R. Wetsch, Ph.D.
acutally I reckon the problem is more the missing professional accreditation than the non-traditional way of education, since (according to what people at my regional Kultusministerium told me) there will be just MBA degrees (don´t know about undergraduates, but I guess the rules are pretty much the same) accepted that come from AACSB-accredited Universities PLUS "known" Universities, that is to say the "big" ones and the State Universities.
That´s the way I got it,
but I also hope there will be some significant changes in our law.
On the other hand, it is understandable that our administration acts like this because we did not have the system of Bachelors and Masters in Germany so far, we are just beginning to use those internationally known degrees in our system, so there are not many experiences...
Greetings to all of you,
The German Academic Exchange Service (DAAD)published information about the recognition of US degrees in Germany.
A US degree may not be recognized in Germany. The criteria listed by the DAAD were rather numerous. Among them the nontraditional nature of a programm.
Each criterion is not inevitably disqualifying. But in the case of Regents, the criteria at issue are multiple.
The issue needs clarification.
The Kultusministerkonferenz decided to change the procedure. It's not yet in force. The idea; if someone graduated from a recognized foreign university he won't have to ask official permission to use the title.
What will be a recognized US university ? I don't know. In the case of an MBA, it could be regional accred. + AACSB.
Will Excelsior College be recognized ? I don't know.
Will Uiversity of Phoenix be recognized ? I don't know and I hope it won't.
Any school which doesn't accept HW (none which I have heard of) will likely not accept Warwick either.
The University's reputation? Where have you been? Amongst those who are aware, HW's reputation is actually quite impressive. I just ran into someone the other day in Houston who used to recruit on-campus at HW for Amoco.
AFAIK, Warwick is both AMBA ([the British] Association of MBA) and AACSB (American Assoc of Col. Sch. of Bus.) accredited. HW has neither. In the US at least AACSB is the sign of a good b-school, and Cambridge notwithstanding I'd expect an "impressive" UK b-school to have at lease one. HW is a good school, but my impression was always that in the non-DL arena, HW wasn't even first in Edinburgh. In the DL arena HW is certainly a good school, but not great.
To finish my last thought--does anyone know why Cambridge is not AMBA accredited? Is the Judge institute just too new?
Gerstl comments that Warwick is AMBA and AACSB accredited and Heriot-Watt is neither.
True. HW had been AMBA accredited. But when AMBA announced that DL programs would require a separate process, a group of British schools including HW, Warwick, Durham, and Henley protested, pointing out that their DL programs were identical in content, exams, etc., and should continue to be included. AMBA said no. Warwick decided to play to AMBA's tune, and HW resigned in a fit of pique.
During my marketing involvement with HW (1991-1998), we strongly encouraged them to apply to AACSB (which had assured us they would welcome an application). HW's response was something along the lines of, "We are already the largest MBA in the world and, we believe, one of the best. Why on earth would we spend all that time and many tens of thousands of pounds for this colonial blessing."
Gerstl also wonders why Cambridge's MBA isn't AMBA. I don't know, but I don't think it is newness. Since the Cambridge distance MBA is being financed and marketed by Pearson, the same folks who market the HW MBA and the Excelsior MBA (and a dozen other good programs), perhaps it has something to do with that.
And since you brought up the Judge School, here's a bit of arcane trivia. What British institution was started by the parents of the Mr. Judge who funded the business school at Cambridge? Answer: Greenwich School of Theology; Judge's mum is still on the board after 40 years.
Could you do me a favor and send me a link to the DAAD´s text, if possible? I´d be very interested in getting every information available about the topic Bachelor´s & Master´s in Germany.
Thanks and All the best,
In the UK, it is the Quality Assurance Agency that is concerned with quality in Higher Education, as the following extracts clearly support:-
1. This Report presents the findings of an assessment in March 1994 of the quality of education provided in business and management studies by the University of Kent at Canterbury.
4. The Business School's aims, as stated in the self-assessment, to `be a significant European Business School, achieving a reputation for excellence in its teaching, research and corporate service activities', are wholly consistent with those of the University. In addition, the School aims to develop and improve high-quality MBA programmes and to achieve accreditation from the Association of MBA (AMBA).
Our independent accreditation service is at the heart of our commitment to management education and development and is market-driven and international.
The Association aims to encourage the quality of MBA programmes in a fast expanding global market. By promoting MBAs and MBA programmes we represent each of our membership groups:
So AMBA is a marketing tool used to promote member schools and the network of students and graduates of such schools.
Note sure I understand your point here (for example the first "it" refers to:
Anyway a comment on some stuff John said:
Sort of cutting off the nose to spite the face. While they might not agree with the AMBA on this (*I do BTW--reasons below*) but from the perspective of a prospective student, I'm not at all happy with this. HW might be doing fine without AMBA and AACSB, but as a student I'd like to have the impression that the school is actively trying to raise it's reputation in the marketplace. Having the biggest MBA, perhaps paradoxically, does not do that. Joining lots of [somewhat useless] organizations of prestegious schools, does do that. They might have 10,000 students (BTW--how many graduates a year?), but I don't think they'll get the 10,001 (me)
** why I think the AMBA is right (and wrong):
I don't doubt that HW would get the AMBA stamp of approval--but I'm not convinced it should. As I see it there are three types of educational experience in a good B-School:
1)Classes (base knowledge).
2)Collabarative work (ex. "Learning Teams" in Wharton)
3)Projects (detailed study of a problem).
Personally I would consider a business school education incomplete without these. Note that all can be accomplished in DL: (1) through books and classes, (2) through either physical meetings or through cyber-collaberation, and (3) through a dissertation, thesis, report or presentation(sometimes this is combined with (2) to have a group look at a problem in depth).
I don't know if the 8 day Warwick meetings accomplish (2) or are just excuses to get together and drink warm beer, but they do have a thesis requirement which satisfies (3) [as does London]. HW has chosen an assessment route to satisfy (1). I don't see anything wrong with this, but I find it somewhat incomplete. Note that while the on campus program is fundamentally the same, grades can be based partially on class project work too (from the HW page):
I find the on-campus MBA a bit narrow in that doesn't require (2) or (3). Might be a fine program fully equivalent to an RA MBA, but it doesn't have the elements I'd expect from a world class program.
So, back to the question. London doesn't look that good, how about Warwick?
Not necessarily. Triggersoft noted
Admittedly there is an "out" for a state school, but since kruemeli noted that he will have to individually get an Open U MBA approved.......
Anyway I'd be interested in what our German friends find out about acceptance of HW MBA, Warwick MBA, Open MBA, London DL MBA etc.
I'm sorry. The text is no longer published.
I consulted it several times. Unfortunately I did not save it.
It did not deal with the bachelor-master question. It was rather a little vademecum,a list of criteria that could bring about the non-recognition of a US degree in Germany.
I give you one more example; to study at a foreign satellite of an American university.
Best regards. Ulrich
Separate names with a comma.