French murderer avoids trial because he smoked weed

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by Lerner, Apr 19, 2021.

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  1. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    https://news.yahoo.com/neighbor-tossed-elderly-jewish-woman-121046808.html

    Maybe some day karma may meet this guy by the hands of another drugged person?
    Is being "stoned" in France a license to harm others and avoid trial?


     
  2. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    The French Civil Law tradition is completely different than the U.S. common law tradition but even in then U.S. there is such a defense as "drug induced psychosis". Whether the defense is available depends upon the jurisdiction. Now, not standing trial for this reason doesn't necessarily mean that the defendant gets away with no consequences. Since he has proven himself to be dangerous, he will probably be committed to a secure mental hospital possibly for life. Incidentally, one should read the news item rather carefully. It says he had cannabis in his system. It does NOT say that the weed is what induced the psychotic state nor does it address what other drugs he might have been using nor any pre-existing mental conditions.
     
  3. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    But don't they have criminal law? In this case this is not a civil law.
    I have no familiarity with French law system.
    I was shocked when I read the story. I agree this murderer should not be set free.
     
  4. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Yes, of course they have a criminal law system. My point us, you can't tell from the article whether his is in law a murderer.
     
  5. Courcelles

    Courcelles Member

    Civil Law as opposed to Common Law. Not “civil” as it is used in the US, as in a suit for damages.
     
  6. mintaru

    mintaru Active Member

    You are completely right, of course. In this case, however, I fear Lerner is at least kind of right when he asks:
    That's what this article from today about the same case suggests.

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/04/25/sarah-halimi-thousands-protest-decision-not-to-try-jewish-woman-s-killer

    At least the killer has been held in a specialized unit of a psychiatric hospital since Halimi’s death.
     
  7. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Exactly.
     
  8. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    My point is that neither Lerner nor I nor anyone else can form any kind of judgment about the legal guilt or otherwise of this defendant because all we have is press accounts. The press in France is just as willing to engage in sensationalism as the press anywhere else if it will sell papers. Doubtless the basic tragic facts are what they seem to be but legal guilt or innocence cannot be determined from what we know.
     
  9. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Somehow I make this connection and I don't consider myself Islamofob.

    Each country has its issues.

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/retired-generals-warning-impending-civil-171713183.html

    Twenty retired generals and scores of ex-officers have sparked a political furore in France after calling on President Emmanuel Macron to stop the country from descending into chaos and “civil war” at the hands of Islamists.
    Led by Jean-Pierre Fabre-Bernadac, a retired Gendarmerie general, and signed by 80 other retired officers, the open letter to Mr Macron was published in Valeurs Actuelles, a right-wing news magazine, last week.
     
  10. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    None of which has anything to do with the alleged psychosis defense.
     
  11. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    I think the defense in this case is a cover up for hate crime.
    Islamist murdered a Jewish woman yelling 'Allahu Akbar'
    I don't think it was just a coincidence that the woman he murdered happened to be Jewish.
    Psychiatric health is very common defense line after gruesome murder.
    Some times I think if Hitler was standing trial in today's France he would be sent to psychiatric hospital and noting more.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2021
  12. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    And you base this judgement on...what?
     
  13. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    The circumstances surrounding the murder including the fact that Halimi was the only Jewish resident in her building, and that the killer (Kobili Traoré) shouted Allahu akbar during the attack and afterward proclaimed "I killed the Shaitan"
    a stark example of Jew hate in France. The killer consumed cannabis which induced a state of psychosis a practice ISIS fighters and other mercenaries do before going in to the battle.
    Traoré was reportedly enraged following a family dispute and gained access to the neighboring apartment of a different family, who immediately locked themselves into a bedroom, phoned police for help, and waited in fear as they listened to the intruder reciting verses from the Quran.
    Reports show that Traoré had never been confined to a psychiatric hospital before but had been imprisoned several times for offenses including aggravated violence.
    Traoré was "charged with intentional homicide against Mrs Attal-Halimi and for forcible confinement" of the neighboring family via whose apartment he climbed into Halimi's apartment.
    In September 2017, the prosecutor officially characterized the killing as an "antisemitic" crime.
    According to Jean-Alexandre Buchinger, an attorney for the victim's family, the killer ought to have been charged with "murder with antisemitism as an aggravating circumstance", I think he was right.
    Magisters rullingd that Traoré was likely not criminally responsible because his heavy cannabis use had put him in a state of temporary psychosis known in France as bouffée délirante; is questionable.
    The drug indeed showed the true nature of this beast.
     
  14. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Sounds to me like he is just crazy. Crazy people can smoke pot. But, they will be crazy whether or not they smoke pot.
     
  15. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Without seeing the psychiatric reports it is impossible to say whether the French court erred. Our outrage and horror, however understandable, prove nothing.
     
  16. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    I'm all for giving one the benefit of the doubt, but when a Muslim throws a Jew off a balcony while shouting "Allahu Akbar!" that benefit-to-doubt ratio is too big for me to swallow.
     
  17. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    You don't know what his brain was doing. You might be perfectly correct. The presumption is that he's competent and liable for his crime. But the French court had reasons for what it did and I don't know what evidence they looked at. That's all there is to it.
     
    SteveFoerster likes this.
  18. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Perhaps. And were I actually on a jury for something like this, yes, I would do my best to leave this "call it like I see it" approach on the courthouse steps.
     
  19. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    I think its not exactly, he didn't attack any other neighbor, his hate of Jews was revealed and he committed a hate crime.
     
  20. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    I don't disagree with you that it looks like a hate crime. The fact that the French court sent him to a psychiatric hospital indicates to me that he is probably crazy. Taking the position that we know what should best be done with this fellow when we are making such assertions/decisions based on so little evidence available to us just seems strange to me.
     

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