First 100% Online JD Program Approved by ABA

This was shared by Alpha on the other forum. I'm actually kind of surprised that ABA approved St. Mary's University for this. I'm from San Antonio, and they were always in the news for their low bar passage rate.

https://www.stmarytx.edu/2021/online-jd-launch/

 

From their own press release, it seems like their pilot Master of Jurisprudence (M.Jur.) degree program helped pave the way.

I wonder how common the M.Jur. is, and I wonder if this would be a good strategy for other schools too?

 

There are quite a few law schools offering an online M.Jur, MLS, or MSLS.

 

For a long time, I was against the idea of an online ABA JD but now years later I realize I was against it mostly because I was supporting barriers to entry, namely that I wanted prospective lawyers to have to suffer through the 3 years of pain that is law school, including the opportunity cost, that I did. The “pain of law school,” in my opinion, includes not only the rigor of the coursework but also the disruption of whatever life you had before, and further having to attend school and socialize with fellow law students, many of whom, you might imagine - if you’ve never been - are often pretty insufferable people. The opportunity cost in my case was fairly significant. I gave up a decent job and a happy life, with a good relationship just to start all over again with basically nothing out of school. I have built back up something great (I have a successful career, family, etc.), but I sometimes wonder if all the costs were worth it. So, my opinion had changed over the years. I say this is a great development. You don’t have to ruin your life just to become a lawyer anymore? As they say: why wasn’t this around when I was a kid?

 

This is an amazing breakthrough. I suspect the degree will cost upwards of $US100K. It might be a good idea to examine thoroughly one's goals for such an undertaking.

 

I always thought of going to law school after my Ph.D., but I hate standardized tests like LSAT, GRE, GMAT, and so on. I have tried Khan's LSAT prep, but I am just annoyed with the analytical reasoning section. I don't think these tests are a measure of your likelihood to succeed. We just voted unanimously (at the department level) on a proposal to remove the GRE/GMAT from our MPA program. The proposal cited several recent and relevant scholarly resources to support the proposal. It also mentioned schools that have removed the GRE/GMAT requirement from their MPA programs. Among them were Liberty University Online, Johns Hopkins University, Seton Hall University, American University, and several others. Another program (M.Psych) has passed two rounds of approval for the removal of the GRE. Today, we vote as a college (not the university) whether to approve it.

I would still go to law school but not online. My motivation was always to attend law school in person, particularly an accelerated 2-year full-time program. If only I could get a full-time remote faculty position. I would have the time to attend law school full-time. My vision is that I would practice immigration law primarily. However, I would also want to represent a certain number of justice-involved youth pro-bono. I'm still young (almost 30), so anything is possible. It may not be right now.

 

One thing different about JD program is the insane amount of memorization needed. For example, there are 20+ exceptions to the hearsay rule (out of court statement for the truth of matter asserted is not admissible). One can look up some bar exam essays to see if that's something he/she'd be interested in spending a few years doing.

 

Standardized testing places a barrier for those who are not good test takers particularly minorities and low-income students who did not have the opportunity of high-quality education. You are right that standardized testing does not prove anything at all as I myself am a terrible test taker but if there is a will there is a way to complete the work plus most law programs only require a 2.0 / C in each course.

 

In most fields I would agree with you, but in law in particular the LSAT has repeatedly been found predictive of law school grades, in a way that I think the GRE (for example) does not do with business school grades. https://www.lsac.org/data-research/research/lsat-still-most-accurate-predictor-law-school-success#:~:text=However%2C%20undergraduate%20grades%20are%20weaker,UGPA%20improved%20prediction%20by%2057%25.

 

I agree. I'm a terrible test taker as well. My MBA, which was test-heavy, is evidence of this. My GPA was 3.08. However, I earned a 4.0 GPA in my Ph.D. and MS., which were writing-intensive.

Though I'm not too fond of these tests, I'd more go with the GRE than the LSAT. Quite a few schools accept LSAT alternatives, including Harvard.

 

Interesting point. Did you mean to say GMAT for business school? I don't know of too many or even any business schools that accept GRE.

 

I was just going based on memory but it looks like a lot of B-schools accept the GRE https://www.ets.org/gre/consider/business/programs/ Looks like the best candidates (and programs) tend to rely on the GMAT though. https://www.mba.com/exams-and-exam-prep/gmat-exam/gmat-vs-gre

 

The people selling the GMAT probably don't qualify as a reliable source for this claim, of course.

 

It does not matter ABA accreditation, most of the state bars are not allowed Online law education to be admitted to bar admission. Until they lift that up, otherwise it is hard to determine if this ABA Online JD is suitable for future Attorneys.

 

My state is one of the states that does not accept online or correspondence programs. I'm sure St. Mary's cleared it with Texas since that's where they're located.

 

I don't see the big deal with someone completing their law degree online. Those States need to move away from that nonsensical reasoning. I'm more interested in whether the person can pass the bar exam. That said, I would be totally against someone attending med school online.

 

It might just be resistance to change, but also the Socratic method of teaching that is popular in (some? most?) law schools doesn't really transfer over to an online format unless you're doing live synchronous lessons in which case you're losing out on much of the advantage of online courses.

 

I wouldn't necessarily say that because online courses are not, by their very nature, asynchronous. Many schools offer synchronous online programs or have synchronous components. Baker College, for instance, offers online and OnlineLive. Some people may appreciate synchronous learning but would rather not do it in person, or they cannot do so because of their geographical location.

 

I agree with you. Honestly, I was surprised when I started out as a Legal Administrative Clerk in the United States Marine Corps; most of my continued education was corresponding courses. JD cannot be completed online or corresponding to be admitted to the state bar. Especially studying law do not need practical applications like Medical. Also, what is the purpose of reading laws but not allow online JD or corresponding?

 

It could be argued that there are tacit advantages and learnings that take place in the classroom that are, in turn, valuable in learning to practice law. Not everything learned is explicit and measured. Also, the bar exam merely measures cognitive learning. It does not cover psycho-motor skills (like arguing a case or conducting research or writing), and I doubt it does much in the affective domain, either.

I'm not saying these things are true, but I'm saying it could be about a lot more than passing some exams (including the Bar).