Extending an Idea: Diplomas

Well, you've heard of it now, because the New England Association of Schools and Colleges (the local RA agency) explicitly grants retroactive accreditation to approved candidate institutions:

ABET also grants professional accreditation retroactively. For example, the engineering program at Smith College recently received full ABET accreditation, retroactive for two years.

 

Accreditation is normal and the assumed operating structure from the very first day of operations for mainstream America schools. Only in the mind of diploma mill apologists and the like is the idea of accreditation too expensive, too difficult, or reasonably optional for a college offering the generally accepted set of programs leading to Bachelor's degrees.

 

What I'm trying to get at...

What if a diploma mill dropped any sort of standard degree title from their programs and instead simply had certificates, diplomas and some credentials OTHER than an AA/AS.BA/BS etc.?

It seems if (I'll try to pick a school closed by the government) Hamilton University (Wyoming) offered a Diploma of Business for life experience and kept out of the DEGREE granting could it have avoided much of the problems it had?

This is just a topic talk on the issue but it seems to me taking as an example a current degree from a school takes 6 courses worth 120 credits to get a BA now and instead it was a DIPLOMA program, it would make it more credible. If nothing else it would be difficult to claim its a degree mill offering a diploma with standards more in line with a career course of study.

Just again for a discussion of the issue.

 

Re: What I'm trying to get at...

A diploma of this sort would still lack credibilty and also lack marketability to the frauds who seek out fake credentials.

 

What do you believe in? The term Diploma mill apogolists is insulting me or others who try to have an open mind.

 

Well my view is we have to look at schools based on one fact do they have some sort of actual work required for a program. Now if we take out pure life experience degrees and look at other sorts of unaccredited programs- what if they simply offered certificates or diplomas. These are generally recognized as a legitimate title for a organized course of study in IT and in many areas such as trade schools. I would think a program substandard for a bachelors might be treated differently in a diploma program. After al there is there is no STANDARD for a diploma it can be for a program in customer service to nursing. One thing these schools might consider is a choice of a degree title or a diploma in a concentration. Since the fundamental expectations would be different in the mind of most when seeing the two options.

Just again making a positon here that a diploma would generally put less pressure on priograms with some sort of education offered via work but below a traditional bachelors program.

 

What I think would make sense is a kind of post graduate diploma in a specific area. You could call it a cross-over diploma. Meaning if someone wants to change career, they can do this diploma in 6-12 months and have a good qualification to start at least mid level.

The fact that it is a diploma may not cause any issues with the need for specific approvals. making it at post-graduate level may give more respect than the average diploma.

If someone has lots of verifiable experience then they could probably be exempted to register for this course providing they meet the basic educational requirements to fit into the program.

 

But what about those without a bachelors degree? Although a concentration system with organization accreditation would very likely work. Examples would be a Diploma in Management or a Diploma in Law but one can't overlook education for personal growth such as a Diploma in Liberal Arts. But my point is avoad a degree title and it might be much easier to get the programs to be taken more seriously. IF there is some real work required even if doing a few written papers or a thesis project.

 

The person without degree above could be admitted if they have the correct background after evaluation. In Europe, schools will accept a competent person into a Masters or PhD wihtout first degree.

Most of what you are suggesting is already in the UK and other countries. You can get diploma from a professional body thats considered degree level etc.

It would be nice to have modulor system in any case. Someone could just take a diploma in General Education Requirements, then transfer to any other school to specialize for another Diploma or full degree.

 

I have other reasons in the US a BA/BS as examples has a certain expectation and as a formal degree (others are also used but these are standard basic ones) not met by many unaccredited schools. Even though they also require some sort of work to get them not considering in this clear "diploma sellers" but ones that do have coursework or other means to verify knowledge at some level. In these cases a DIPLOMA might be a much more useful option since not being a degree in the United States its not likely to be treated the same as a bachelors.

Lets say a school using a real school offers a BA or BSc taking six topical core study courses for 20 credits and requires a written exam to get a degree. Now of course in the US this would unlikely be treated as a equal credential to a degree at that level so I propose by calling this instead a DIPLOMA upon completion it would tend to avoid the hastles of using said credential in the United States. And a Diploma is a credential used in the United States so employers would recognize it.

Its a matter of use of terms a degree with know quantities and expectations has a higher standard than a diploma a more modest credential.

 

Why would an employer want a candidate with a milled "life exerience" diploma over a candidate with an accredited degree? All other things being equal, of course.

 

What I am saying is the best way to advance your argument is to use known example. You can go to the BCS (www.bcs.org) today, take their annual exams and get a post-graduate Diploma which is same as Honors Degree. Its not a degree but by international agreements it is recognized as such.

Now in the US, the word degree is used more than just casual. Its very cultural to expect a certain level of education to be called degree. If you call it diploma then its not seen as degree level. You may have to use the term graduate diploma or come up with a name that implies degree level.

 

If a mill is selling meaningless diplomas, why does it matter whether they are degree diplomas? If they are meaningless, they are meaningless.

That would depend on the details of the applicable laws.

So why do you keep talking about "diploma mills" and using intentionally smelly examples? Why not talk about "non-accredited schools" and use better examples?

Thousands of non-accredited postsecondary schools are already doing that.

I agree that modest schools would be better off if they offered modest programs. They might not sell as well, though.

Whether a non-degree diploma program is accepted as valuable or is dismissed as just another diploma-mill scam would depend on its credibility, on how it's perceived. That's no different than it is with degrees, really.

And just by definition, "diploma mills" lack credibility. They wouldn't be very effective sources of diploma programs because people would just ask the obvious question: 'If we can't trust your degree diplomas, why should we trust your non-degree diplomas?'

 

I didn't say a "milled" diploma for life experience alone did I? I said a diploma where the school requires some sort of formal education or work that may not be treated as a degree level in the USA of education. In my example that is not a BSc or BA level of work but is class work that if you called it a diploma would be a more respectable credential. And not all employers require a bachelors in many a simple small certification is enough or some training related to ones profession.

Added one does not need any sort of accreditation in the United States at least to offer non-degree training.

Example in my company a degree must be accredited for a credential at least nationally or in the host country. But if you state a DIPLOMA or CERTIFICATE the standard is not applied. Of course some jobs require the higher credential but in many cases having a diploma in business that took three years of part-time work would suffice regardless of the institution. After all many legitimate programs offer certificates and diplomas and are not accredited.

So I agree with the other party one could have a Diploma and a Graduate Diploma and it would likely get past even Iowa after all they go after "degree mills" not other sorts of schools. If a school even opted to offer both a bachelors and/or a diploma credential one could likely use the second legally in any state and many countries even if the first is illegal.

 

I wasn't calling you a diploma mill apologist. I guess if the shoe fits though?

I said what I believed. I'll be happy to say some more, though. Going for an unaccredited degree doesn't make sense because the utility is significantly less than an accredited degree. The cost of an unaccredited degree is not that much cheaper at the Bachelor's level. Unaccredited institutions are usually degree mills so one is risking money and time for limited return. The general public has great difficulty differentiating the decent unaccredited institutions from the dipolma mills so generally has a tendency to lump all unaccredited institutions into the diploma mill category, further limiting the utility of decent unaccredited college degrees. Coming up with fantasies involving situations where unaccredited institutions might be able to fit into the educational system, to me, it doesn't seem to accept the reality of the situation.

 

Honestly, unless a scheme like this brings something new to the table its a waste of time to debate.

The questions to ask.

1. How will credits be accumulated? how is that different from whats currently obtainable?

2. What would be the legal status of the institution?

3. What type of faculty would be available for teaching and assessment?

The area I think is lacking in the US are mainly the concept of work-based degrees or diplomas. This is where a school work with an employer to fullfil requirements for a specific programme.

If someone starts something like this and use the term Graduate Diploma, Master Professional Diploma etc. working large companies HR departments. It may gain recognition even without accreditation.

The other concept that is good. Check out Brainbench this could be extended to offer diplomas based on passing certain exams at specific levels.

 

Well that's a bit harsh. Since an option that is not a degree, not confused at all with a degree as most people would understand it and might be easier to use is not making them fit. Example here lets say I had 60 college credits that were RA and an AA degree and then opted for a life experience approval plus this for a Diploma of Liberal Arts from an unaccredited school. Your telling me that an employer would treat that as a credential like a BA in Liberal Arts- its clearly by definition not. And since we would be talking 20 more classes likely to get a bachelors it might be a more legitimate and faster option.

And using your position every certificate and diploma granted would have to be also accredited yet that would make most trade schools, vocational training programs including union apprenticeships and other credentials similiar in nature illegal to use in some states like Idaho- potentially.

My view is if you even offered a Diploma for life experience only it would be legitimate after all its not a DEGREE but a lesser credential.

This is just for a talk about the differences in a degree or a diploma in the laws in the United States and perhaps other countries. And if changing the uses of language for the credential could unaccredited schools offer a more acceptable option. Even like I said offer a BSc and a Diploma jointly and let the student choose which to use for credentials when applying for a job.

 

The biggest question is who will offer this? If its qualified professionals doing this even the concept of a life experience degree could be acceptable to some extent. Therefore, if they are willing to reveal themselves and have a proper process thats followed then respect to could improve. As you said after thats done, they could give the diploma as well for legal purposes.

My point again, is what would they bring that is not available today?