Does accreditation matter?

An accreditor must measure the outcome and not the process of getting there. We waste to much effort fighting over how to move the rock and not enough on where we want the rock moved to. Knowledge gained, in whatever method, needs to be accounted for, but this assessment means little when every accreditor uses a different measuring stick.
James

 

Re: Standards matter

“When a man has learnt his lesson very well, it surely can be of little importance where he has learnt it.” Adam Smith, 1774.

 

Attested Fitness

Oxpecker

Precisely! But how do we know if he has "learnt his lesson very well"?

The proposal from the College of Surgeons in Edinburgh (on which Smith was commenting critically) was that only persons who had been to one of Scotland's universities could enter the College to be recognised as a surgeon. Smith thought this inappropriate, as his letter shows. Those that entered the College were then trained and examined by the College and an "attestation of fitness" to be a surgeon awarded (or withheld).

At the time in 18th century Scotland there was a lot of quackery about in medicine. The re-quirement of proof of fitness to learn surgery was the first step in a long chain of input measuring (which we at EBS have long criticised) instead of output measuring (which we practice). The essential point that Smith was making was that "prior learning" is no guarantee of competence but he did not deny the necessity of the Collge of Surgeons (now a Royal College) to examine its Fellows, which they still do today.

 

Re: Standards matter

I recall this debate on the Heriot-Watt Watercooler, so Prof. Kennedy has not gone mad (at least this is not the evidence -- there may be other). From what I recall, it concerned local authorities in Germany who stated that they didn't much care about Federal or EU commitments, and would not allow people to claim the "MBA" credential based on an EBS degree.

 

Re: Standards matter

Dear Prof. Kennedy, dear oxpecker,

of course I never wanted to sazy you've gone mad or have lied in those matters, I just wanted to point out the actual EU laws. Sorry if you got that impression, but English is not my mother tongue, so misunderstandings like this an happen more easily.
I believe you unproved that there might be some (non-redeemable) civil servant in one of the (more conservative) German state's (=Bundeslaender) that overregulates and acts above his cognizances. Things like this happen in every country of the world, there are stubborn and undereducated people who do not want to learn or accept change.
Still, it is for sure that any degree that is issued legally in another EU member country is a legal degree also in Germany. In this case, you do not even have to get the degree "nostrificated" by the state's Ministry of Education, but can just use it. So it is in every case legal to lead the degree on your business card, and anyone trying to sue you (either a private person or a state authority) will definetely lose in court.
The thing is different with Non-EU degrees. If I would for example get a Harvard MBA (or a Cal. Coast University MBA) and lead it as "My Name, MBA" on my business card without ahving it "nostrificated", I would commit a crime, no matter of the quality of the school.
Greets,
Trigger

 

German recognition of distance MBAs

Triggersoft

I promised a response once I had checked the debate details from Watercooler on German recognition of EU degrees that were legal in their country of origin) and here are some early replies to my question to those who remembered the debate in 2001:

You wrote: "any degree from YOUR university could be used legally in Germany without having it approved because it certainly is a (in the GB state approved, by the Royal Charter) EU university. "

The following are extracts from the debate on the attitude of German Lander Officials in parts of Germany who appear not to have realised that the EU has ruled on the validity of member state degrees in all EU states:

1 "In principle, the recognition of degrees from foreign schools is the responsibility of the respective ministry of education in the various states where the applicant resides, from where permission to carry the MBA designation must be asked. It is recommended that applicants inform themselves by the respective authority to verify if the designation can be used."

2 "The caveat is that even if a MBA degree is acceptable to be used, it may not be deemed equivalent to German designations to qualify for certain certifications (the same holds true even for some German MBA designations)."

3 "I remember the discussion thread that you are referring to. The last status that I remember was that Fred had send a formal request to the EU and was waiting for an answer back from them, which they had promised within 3 month.
The main reason that I remember why Germany did not recognize the distance learning degree was that they requied a certain amount of time "on campus" as part of the studies. "

4 "I would be very interested in the progress on this question, as I might be going back to Germany in the next few years and a recognition there would be an added bonus (although not really essential)."

5 "Upon reading the threads last year concerning the bureaucratic jungle in Germany concerning the MBA, I casually contacted a lawyer about this and was told that one cannot be prevented from using titles awarded in a foreign country in the original language. MBA stands clearly in English for Master's of Business Administration. Full stop. The lawyer intimated that going through the bureaucracy was necessary only when one wanted to "translate" masters into the German "Magister"...then one's degree had to be thourghly evaluated before one could claim to have a "Magister", or "Diplom-Kaufmann" degree. Simply using the title awarded in a foreign country in the original language behind one's name was perfectly kosher, at least according to the lawyer I talked to. I relayed this to Fred last year and in a brief missive from him he acknowledged knowing this but it seemed he wanted to be permitted to use "Magister"/Diplom-Kaufmann title instead of "Master."

Some local officials do not recognise distance learning MBAs either in their own right or when presented as equivalent of a German degree. If the latter is attempted (comparing it to a German Masters degee) this seems to be excluded, and was not my point, as other pieces in this rumbling debate were quite clearly intimating that it was the distance nature of the EBS MBA that was being rejected. I argued your line - an EU member state's degrees are acceptable in all EU countries - but I was definitely taken to task on this assumption by quoted statements to the effect that a jail sentence awaited those who put "MBA" on their business cards (which I thought somewhat a extreme and lurid conclusion unlikley to be put into practice - all EU states have signed the EU Human Rights laws).

If this has now been cleared up and settled according to EU law I am most pleased. It has not so far been widely disseminated to the education secotr.

Thanks for your information. Incidentally, I never take criticism personally and there is no need to assume your resposne to my assumptions was in any way treated as an accusation against my integrity and hence no need to apologise. 'Good reason must give way to better'.

 

A livwely debate and discussion...!

As triggersoft quoted

>Originally posted by BillDayson
The problem isn't "accreditation", "royal charters" or "Europe vs. the US". It's simply academic credibility.<

The point the present discussion raises for me is the contrasting legal traditions that eminate from the Continent of Europe versus the Anglo-American one.

The legal and regulatory environment of Europe was profoundly shaped by the conquering Code Napolen. This proto-socialist tradition "regularized" written law for most of Europe, cementing the "rule of law" from statutes issued "from the [wise] center" of government, not the ignorant provinces.

For example, in the Concordat of 1802 (or was it 1804?) with the Vatican, Napoleon effectively nationalized Catholicism within France, expropriating Church properties for the state, and gaining the requirement of state approval for all Bishops appointed by the Church. (For those of you who know my animus for France elsewhere, from Off-Topic Discussions, and how it extends to the Church's promotion of antisemitism--well, here's where and why these egregious policies exist: for reasons of state! France approves of Bishops who go to the Vatican and then promote anti-semitism there in the name of the Church, while the Pontiff ails.)

All of this is consistent woth the outline of intellectual and legal tradition expounded by F. A. von Hayek. He contrast the Continent's rational-constuctivist traditions with the Anglo-American world's spontaneously ordered traditions favoring laissez-faire (literally "let alone") policies over statism.

The Anglo-American legal tradition evolved from a Medival past shaped by spontaneous orders of competing interests impinging upon the Monarchy from outside the seat of official power. Instead of legitiating education "from the center" or through edicts from "on High," the English speaking world is thus very different.

Instead, consistent with its deeper traditions of dissent (remember how John Wycliff preceeded Luther by centuries--his proto-Protestant quest simply went unaided by the printing press that came later!), the Anglo-American world holds the freedom of contract sacrosanct--not state prerogatives.

This includes the freedom of contract for an education. Thus, the mode of legitimating higher education in the US, free of state sponsorship of religion evolved into multilateral contracts of reciprocal obligation (and therefore transferal of credit is required within limitations), while also maintaining and enforcing standards of quality education--and Viola! Regional Accreditation is born.

The bottom line IS credibility. the means through which that credibility is gained is quite different, and partly explains why the US has so many sources and resources for higher education, while other nations have so few. In other words, the flowering and diversity of American higher education is also a product of its means.

Mao may have written "let a hundred flowers bloom;" the USA actually achieved it.

--Orson

 

Dear Prof. Kennedy.

As I already mentioned, there are always and everywhere people who simply don´t know. That must be the case in this example with the German bureaucrat.

Still, nobody will get into jail for "title misuse", even if the degree/its use WAS illegal. He can be fined or at least been warned, true, but he will not get into jail.

Nobody with a foreign MBA degree (= a professional degree) will be forced to call himself "Magister" (German Magister is normally a SCIENTIFIC two subject degree) or even "Diplom-Kaufmann" (the regular SCIENTIFIC one subject degree EQUIVALENT to any anglo-saxon specialised Master´s) since that´s a totally different thing - I´ve never heard something like that. Besides, everybody in Germany knows what an MBA is, there are more than 100 legitimate MBA programs, most of them even in English (or German & English) that are state approved and also quite a lot that are accredited by EQUIS, FIBAA, etc. - even one by AACSB.

US-MBA´s for example can onlys be used as "MBA (USA)" on somebody´s business card (but just after "nostrification"), that´s true, but no translation or anything else.

We also do not generally have problems with Distance Learning degrees - the Australian University of Southern Queensland for example holds a "sutdy center" in "Bretten" (near Karlsruhe) where the city of Bretten and the "Land" (=state) of Baden-Württemberg are involved. You write your exams there and get the MBA degree at the end. It is not a problem at all to get approval ("nostrification") from this country´s Ministry of Education to use the degree (I reckon as "MBA (AUS)" or so).

It´s indeed a strange story you´re telling, and I surely believe you it had happened, but I see this as an exemption that could happen anywhere else in the world (like for example this American credit evaluator that extremely put your MBA program down in level). That´s people. People make mistakes. And people are (regretfully often) uninformed. But that´s not the general German politics.

Germans getting one of your degrees get a meaningful piece of paper that they can immediately and without any restriction use on their business card, doorbell signs or whatever. That´s not MY ARGUMENTATION, that´s European law. And German authorities do not see that differently. There´s no need for talking to lawyers or whatever because nothing will happen. When some INDIVIDUAL thinks this degree is not worth anything and gets you to trial, nothing will happen to you. Full stop.

And this talking about the misues of even German MBA titles is even a lot moe strange. Here the rule is even simpler: state approval counts, not accreditation. Accreditation is just one´s personal cherry on the cake and might help you in job reasons or so.

So, please continue encouraging Germans to get one of your degrees if they are interested in your education (I was thinking about it also a few years ago, but I had a very negative experience with your administration office that on the other side was not informed at all about German degrees what was in a way even almost embarrassing).

In this sense,

best regards from Germany,

Triggersoft