Do non-RA degrees still make sense?

These are your words, Gus. To me, that displays a certain narrow mindedness, bigotry and discrimination. Where am I wrong?

"They are not rejected; they are not even considered. What poorer decision can an individual make than to be dishonest".

Your statement above indicates that your summarily reject ANY candidate who holds a state-approved unaccredited degree without considering their work history and accomplishes. The law really allows that?

Significantly lower acceptance for CCU in academia - yes. In business, from my experience, I would disagree.

I don't suggest that my friends were hired primarily because of their degree from CCU. Their advancements came from their professional accomplishments. They choose CCU to learn additional skills at an affordable cost and was flexible.

"are you certain that all three of these individuals approached their respective employers, informed them that they wanted to pursue non-traditional, unaccredited degrees..."

Absolutely. As I said these individuals are not the slothful characters being portrayed by those comments. They were up front and clear with their employers. This I know for a fact.

"should I consider individuals with degrees from Colombia State University? How about Earlscroft? Monticello? TC&U?"

No. I make the clear distinction between state-approved unaccredited degrees and degree mills, the latter of which I do not support.

"Anyone in a hiring position knows that one of the most difficult tasks is assessing character and integrity from a limited amount of information. No one is exempt from making poor decisions; I know I certainly have made my share of them. In evaluating a candidate for employment, however, the focus should be on what the individual learned from the experience, as well as the choices he or she made to correct the problem or prevent it from happening again."

Unfortunately, these individuals' resumes will never make it further than your trash can since you say that these folks are "not even considered".

"Needless to say, the second group is comprised of far fewer individuals than the first, but what they lack in numbers they make up for in honesty, integrity and ethics."

So by that statement, you again assume that EVERYONE who has selected a state-approved unaccredited degree lacks honesty, integrity and ethics. I just think that you are wrong to make such broad statements.

Bob

 

Uh, Gerstl, my point is that I have already HAVE a career -- I don't need "hopes for one" -- and the degree program I'm pursuing is not designed, and will not be used, to advance my career within legal education or conventional academe. In fact, very little of the substantive work I'm doing in this degree program has direct overlap with my primary legal teaching and legal scholarship interests. It is more avocational more than vocational, dealing with broader interests in adult education and social change. (Though as a footnote, I will point out that a number of graduates of the Western Institute for Social Research have indeed managed to hook adjunct and full-time teaching positions at RA schools, usually ones with a very urban or progressive bent.)

Now, if those same people who judge the world by educational tiers want to think less of me because I've opted for a legitimate, albeit non-RA educational program that better meets my intellectual interests over a more prestigious program (as conventionally defined) that is less appealing to me, well, there's not a heckuva lot I can do about it. Indeed, even if I did make some of those folks "happy" by enrolling at, say, Fielding or Walden or Union, the next bunch of critics -- including the large number of people who regard EVERY DL degree as suspect -- would be assuming that I did so because I wasn't capable of doing the work in a well-known residential program. And so on.

Point is, DL has had to put up with those kinds of attitudes for years. Let's not automatically project the same attitudes on all non-RA schools and their students now that a growing number of DL schools are being permitted entry into the RA club. After all, not all the guardians of that RA gate are as enlightened as some of us would like them to be. And while we may be amused at the "outings" of those who used a Trinity or Monticello degree to get their positions, let's not be so presumptuous to think that the Fieldings and Unions of the world are so well-received that a graduate of one of them could withstand a smear campaign tagging him/her as a "correspondence school" Ph.D.

It is true that I will have to be careful about how I would use or represent such a degree. (Even were I to earn, say, a Univ. of London LL.M. by distance learning, I would hesitate to list it if I were applying to teach at another law school.) But I assure you, I won't stop with WISR. I fully intend on being a lifelong student, racking up "credentials" that some will like, and others won't like. Someday I'd love to study the Civil War through American Military University's DETC Master's degree program. Or maybe I'll enroll in some matchcover art school. None of those would hit my faculty webpage either. It's no disaster for me that I would feel constrained from using them as job credentials.

I'm rambling a bit, but I suppose what I'm saying is that while I respect the concept of accreditation and what it represents in a positive way, I urge us not to give it more importance than it deserves. There are good programs and bad ones, and accreditation is only one important factor towards making that distinction.

 

David:

Although the world of accreditation can, indeed, be described in terms of black and white, I am also very aware of the very many subtle nuances and shades of gray concerning educational validity and utility. However, my comments do not refer to some idyllic educational fantasy (ah yes, ancient Greece, where we were free to nibble on grapes and discuss teachings that were destined to become classics), but instead to the real corporate world where a degree is looked upon as a receipt for monies paid, time and effort invested, as well as knowledge acquired and demonstrated.

Every field, or industry, must have its standards. In law, passing the bar exam is the standard. If I recall, in many states one does not even have to attend law school, accredited or not, but one cannot practice law without having passed the bar. This is because of the generally agreed upon standard. Whether or not the bodies overseeing these standards have become politicized, or degenerated into a “good-‘ole-boys club” is another matter altogether. In many other fields state licensure or board examinations are the standard. Or perhaps I should say the minimum standard. For example, in hiring new attorneys for a law firm could you even consider anyone who had not passed the bar?

I once asked a friend of mine who also happens to be an attorney (see how open minded I am? ), “In my business, what are the limits of my liability?” Without batting an eyelid he responded, “The limit of your liability is the creativity of an attorney.”

In the highly litigious healthcare field, if I am ever sued because of a faulty decision or errant action on the part of one of my employees, I am certain that if that employee held an unaccredited degree, it would become a major issue. I am certain opposing counsel would attempt to hold me liable for hiring an incompetent employee. What do you think?

On the other hand, if I was looking to hire someone to trim my Bonsai (not that I would deny myself the pleasure), if an applicant presented an unaccredited degree in Bonsai (is there any other kind?) I would consider it a big plus. Accreditation is simply an educational standard that has validity in some, perhaps most, fields, but not others. I am also very aware that most innovation and progress, by definition, takes place outside the sometime overzealous watchful eye of organizations charged with overseeing and implementing standards.

However, as it pertains to distance education, I feel in most cases, accreditation is crucial. An intelligent individual should recognize that, fair or not, a degree earned at a distance will always (hopefully, not) a certain stigma in the eyes of many. Everything should be done to minimize the impact this could have on the utility of the degree. For example, it is preferable to earn a degree that the institution also offers residentially. Ideally the transcript and diploma makes no mention of the fact that the degree was earned at a distance. Additional accreditation (such as AACSB, etc.) of the program is an added, and not inconsequential, bonus.

I am not saying that accreditation alone is the sole arbiter of the quality of an educational program. It is just that, as an employer, I simply do not have the time to examine the quality of each and every program, and accreditation assures a minimum standard. In this capacity it serves a very useful purpose. Moreover, I cannot afford the potential liability and exposure of going against generally accepted educational accreditation standards.

Gus Sainz

 

Interesting discussion, but for the average person in the year 2001 I cannot see a valid reason to go non "RA". There are now just too many options.

 

Gus,

I actually think we agree on a lot of things regarding the general value of accreditation, but we also look at these issues from very different perspectives.

1. To respond to your question about hiring individuals who have not passed the bar exam, in truth the most prestigious law firms in the nation *typically* extend offers of full-time employment to law students who have yet to take and pass the bar exam. They cannot represent themselves as attorneys, of course, until they have passed the bar exam and been formally admitted to the bar.

2. As I've made clear over and again, I would strongly advise people to go the RA route when that degree is a threshold requirement for being considered for a job. As I've also made clear over and again, I think there are certain, more limited instances where a legitimate non-RA degree can serve a useful purpose for someone.

3. Granted, if say, a healthcare provider is sued for malpractice because of an alleged mistake committed by a physician who graduated from an offshore medical school, that could come up in litigation. As someone who is well informed on trends in tort and employment law liability, I am quite aware of the "creativity" of some lawyers. However, I don't believe, for example, that the individuals who earned California Coast degrees mentioned in Bob Harris' post are causing their employers to sweat about liability. If you want to take your notion to its logical conclusion, then a company is only "safe" from liability vis a vis its employees' educational pedigrees if it restricts hiring to high-ranking graduates of prestigious residential universities.

4. If my comments do reflect visions of an "idyllic educational fantasy" versus the "real corporate world," well, hey, sue me. I do think that adult education has gotten too carried away with pure vocationalism as sheepskin credential bars are set higher and higher. I also think that a lot of people have entered that real corporate world, found it a pretty stressful and unhappy place, and are looking for alternatives. I further believe that some of these non-traditional schools, including some that by choice or circumstance are not RA, are providing a means for examining life/work options outside of that world.

For example, I think you'd find that a lot of Columbia Pacific alums are in that mode. Students at the Western Institute for Social Research are concentrated heavily in the non-profit and social services sectors, with a politically progressive bent. They, too, are seeking alternative models. You understandably look at educational and accreditation issues from the standpoint of a manager hiring people who fit your firm's needs, and that's a valid perspective. But I see other reasons for engaging in learning and credentialing that may not be completely consistent with what accreditors are seeking to validate, and that's an equally valid perspective.

 

Bruce,
I am very disturbed by your comment that people that attend non-RA schools are lazy or do not understand accreditation. I have 3 AA/AS degrees from RA school and I will finish my BS from CCU soon and then enroll in the MBA program. I am a field service engineer and repair medical equipment in NC,SC,GA, and FL. I travel extensively and do not have time for traditional schools. I have taken a distance education class from Indiana University but the exams need to be proctored. I don’t know what state I am going to be in from day to day, how can I schedule a proctored exam? I had to take a vacation day to take a CLEP exam so I knew what state I would be in that day.

I do plan to complete my BS and MBA from CCU as opposed to doing nothing. Does that make me lazy or ignorant? How can you make such an ignorant statement?

And Kristin Evenson, I am trying to fool anyone.

 

No doubt non-accredited degrees might be beneficial to few.
As a person who works for a multinational and part of my job is to recruit people I find potential candidates with legitimate non-accredited degrees a cause of concern which leads to ask many questions and raise lots of question marks. The policy is to hire candidates with RA degrees only. I broke the rule on few occasions and went on to hire candidates with non-accredited degrees, four out of the five people I hired left within one year. The fifth is still in working and just enrolled in one of the RA (DL) schools in order to re-work on his MBA. Needless to say the RA school refused to transfer any of the credits from his non-accredited MBA, they only waived the pre-requests.

Eli

 

Eli,

So did the employees with non-RA degrees quit because they couldn't handle the job, or was it because they simply jump ship and got hired by another company depsite their non-accredited degrees?

If you don't mind, let us know the multinational company you work for.

regards,

Byran, who's a student at the university of british columbia, and not affiliated with any state-approved schools.

 

Unfortunately, three of the four who left were terminated, the fourth found another job in a different field of work, I presume for a lower salary.

Sorry, I am not at leisure to disclose names but the Multi-national is an IT company.

Eli

 

We need to distinguish between non-accredited and non-wonderful.

There are some good schools that have not sought accreditation for a variety of reasons.

There are also "schools" that would never stand a chance of getting accreditation, as they exist mainly to extract money from the naive, impatient, and cynical in return for worthless diplomas. It's of these entitites that I speak when I say that some individuals may hope their "degree" will fool others.

------------------
Kristin Evenson Hirst
DistanceLearn.About.com

 

If some of the regional accreditors would exhibit more openness to legitimate programs that currently are non-RA, then we could truly distinguish RA and RA candidate schools from the apparently burgeoning number of forever non-RA mills, scams, and "less-than-wonderful" schools.

 

[/b][/QUOTE]
I have taken a distance education class from Indiana University but the exams need to be proctored. I don’t know what state I am going to be in from day to day, how can I schedule a proctored exam? I had to take a vacation day to take a CLEP exam so I knew what state I would be in that day.

I do plan to complete my BS and MBA from CCU as opposed to doing nothing. Does that make me lazy or ignorant? How can you make such an ignorant statement?
[/B][/QUOTE]
Obviously proctoring is a major hurdle for you. I do travel a lot also and found that universities similar to Touro and Capella and many others RA schools are excellent choices where exams are constructed based on Case analysis.

You can never go wrong with RA...

Eli

 

Obviously proctoring is a major hurdle for you. I do travel a lot also and found that universities similar to Touro and Capella and many others RA schools are excellent choices where exams are constructed based on Case analysis.

You can never go wrong with RA...

Eli