Concode Law School - Kaplan...

Hey Sideman, I just realized I was just two doors away from your school last week for work and didn't realize it.

 

Hi NorCal. You could've stopped by and taken the school tour. They have a full court set up for moot court and that's where they tape a lot of their lectures from.

 

Concord has posted some statistics covering their overall test results since 1999. Here are the numbers:

2,952 - Students who have taken the First-Year Law Student Exam (FYLSE) since 1999
1,457 - Students who passed the FYLSE (including repeat takers)
805 - Students who took the California Bar Exam
414 - Students who passed the California Bar Exam (including repeat takers)

These numbers imply the following outcomes for students who enrolled at Concord Law and took the FYLSE since 1999:

51 % - took the FYLSE, but did not pass
22 % - passed the FYLSE (some after multiple attempts), but never reached the Bar Exam
13 % - took the Bar Exam, but did not pass
14 % - passed the Bar Exam (some after multiple attempts)

So according to Concord's numbers, 414 out of 2,952 Concord students since 1999 have succeeded in becoming attorneys, by reaching and passing the California Bar Exam. That's about 14 % of those who enrolled at Concord and took the FYLSE during their first year.

Another way to look at it: 86 % of the students who have enrolled at Concord Law since 1999 have failed to become attorneys.

 

Don’t Oak Brook College of Law & Government Policy have decent FYLSX /Bar statistics regarding DL law schools?
Juris Doctor Statistics

 

Oak Brook probably has the highest success rate among California DL schools. Their stats aren't as comprehensive as the ones that Concord has published, but Oak Brook commonly has first-time FYLSE and Bar pass rates around 50%.

However, the pass rate isn't the whole story. Oak Brook's stats include rates, but not actual numbers. The numbers are available from CalBar: from 2009 to 2012, only about 10-12 Oak Brook graduates passed the Bar annually. For comparison, ABA law schools routinely produce hundreds of attorneys per year --at the biggest schools, 300-400 graduates pass the bar every year. So Oak Brook is relatively successful, but only on a very small scale.

Why does Oak Brook have higher success rates than other DL law schools? Probably because it is more selective. Oak Brook recommends that applicants take the LSAT, and they have stringent religious criteria as well.

This is not the usual model for DL law schools: most DL law schools are for-profit, and they take as many students as possible, even those who are not well qualified to study law. Oak Brook, on the other hand, is non-profit, and they have a different outlook. Their goal is to produce lawyers who share their religious beliefs, so they only want students who have both the right beliefs and a good chance to pass the Bar. If you don't have both of those things, Oak Brook won't take you.

 

Nothing against the school, but I went so far as to go into the building and se if I could tour the campus. I was met by a business suite behind a locked door and nobody around. It was located in a business complex that did not feel anything like a college campus, kind of strange because I was expecting more . . .

 

Yes, indeed strange. Who knows why they were closed. You might want to call ahead at 916-920-9470. They've always picked up when I've called and been very responsive.

 

Admission Requirements

Honestly, if you ultimately decide to attend law school, you should go to an ABA accredited school. None of them offer DL JD programs.

I say this because if you get an unaccredited degree, you will only be able to practice law in the state that is hosting the degree (almost all unaccredited degrees come from CA). The reason why accreditation standards are so low in CA is because if you REALLY want to practice in CA, you don't even need a JD! Technically, you can just study up on the subject on your own, pass the baby bar, take a few classes, and do an apprenticeship/internship for 3 years. A traditional JD program is 3 years long, whereas both the unaccredited JD in CA and the apprenticeship route are 4 year "programs".

Not only is a DL law degree unnecessarily expensive and simply unnecessary, it is the ultimate joke of the legal profession. No attorneys in other states value a DL law degree and look very negatively upon those who hold these degrees.

Further, with a DL law degree, your career will be limited to small group or solo practice. Students in the top 1/2 of their classes from accredited law schools aren't finding legal work in firms, government organizations, NGOs, etc. Students from unaccredited schools don't stand much of a chance.

I truly believe you would be doing yourself a disservice by getting a law degree online.

I know that this forum is about DL degrees and how to access them, but this is one degree that just should be sought in a DL format (until ABA-accredited schools start offering them online).

 

First, I'd like to welcome nevertoolate to degreeinfo. The great thing about this forum is that we can share experiences and opinions and give advice that we deem appropriate. It's usually based on what has happened to us and our perceptions, that guides our reality and we hope to share that with others. Second, I actually agree with most of what nevertoolate has to say. I've always advised those with aspirations of practicing law and to have the most options afforded to them, to attend an ABA accredited law school. That said, we are a distance learning forum and people come to us to advise them in distance learning matters. So can you get a law degree by distance learning? Yes you can, just realize the limitations and lack of options that comes with it. Third, I think it is presumptuous to state that all attorneys from all other states outside of California consider a DL law degree "the ultimate joke of the legal profession" and that "no attorneys in other states value a DL law degree and look very negatively upon those who hold those degrees". I deal with attorneys on almost a monthly basis and most have been receptive to my background and they feel fortunate they don't have to break things down into layman terms to communicate with me and that I can see their legal point of view. I'm surprised a 1L, with the background of distance learning nevertoolate has, would take such a stance, but we all have our own opinions. Perhaps one day he/she will reconsider. Fourth and lastly, I can't see the ABA accrediting online schools during my lifetime since I'm somewhat older, one of the reasons I attended NWCU online. Perhaps during nevertoolate's lifetime it may come true. In the meantime I'll continue to defy stereotypes of online law learners and defend our right to learn the law by alternative means.

 

Bravo!!! :yup:

 

Technically, that is true ... but in practice, the number of people who become attorneys by that route in California is very, very small. The CalBar stats indicate that 9 people have passed the bar after apprenticeship during the past 4 years (eight bar administrations). For comparison, Concord had 21 successful bar passers in July 2012 administration alone. As you know, the current legal job market is tough. Why would attorneys and judges want the hassle of supervising novices who want to read the law, when students/graduates from ABA schools are eager to serve as unpaid interns ?

Furthermore, there is no relationship between unaccredited law schools and apprenticeship. Apprenticeship was common nationwide in the 19th and early 20th centuries, and it still exists in several states, not just California. For example, Vermont has apprenticeship but lacks unaccredited law schools (in fact, one of the current Justices on the Vermont Supreme Court [Hon. M. Skoglund] never went to law school). Conversely, Massachusetts has unaccredited law schools (Massachusetts School of Law) but not apprenticeship.

Tuition at DL law schools is around $8,000 to $10,000 per year. Tuition cost for 4 years is therefore $30,000 to $40,000. And that's pretty much the total cost, since DL law students typically keep their existing jobs (so no opportunity costs) and living arrangements (so no extra cost of living). According to Law School Transparency, the estimated, undiscounted cost of attending Brooklyn Law is $272,763 (presumably includes cost of living). For a full-time student who is not working, the opportunity costs could easily push that into the $300,000 to $400,000 range. And you are suggesting that DL law schools are "unnecessarily expensive" ?

It is true that DL law schools are at the bottom of the legal prestige ladder (incidentally, Brooklyn Law School is not at the top either), and will never be a ticket to BigLaw. However, DL law degrees can be a great fit for some people. For example, it's not unusual for CPAs with established practices in California to pursue a second qualification as an attorney though a DL law school. For only $40,000 (the price of a good car), this is not an unreasonable investment for someone who already has an established career.

 

I don't always agree with everything CalDog says but there is no doubt that when a discussion takes place he comes with numbers, details, and enough research to write a thesis.



(Disclaimer: Things I don't agree with you about are always minor, none that I can even think of at this moment.)

 

Thanks for the welcome! ☺
I wholeheartedly agree that distance learners deserve the right to study the law by alternative means. I also agree with sideman; having a working knowledge of the law can be a great asset in many fields.
I apologize, but I was not being presumptuous or merely opinionated when I said that a DL law degree is a “joke of the legal profession”. I was basing that on actual experience. I interned at 4 separate big law firms, including one LA office. Whenever someone from a DL law school submitted a resume with hopes of being hired, those resumes truly were the butt of many jokes. I should not have said “all” attorneys outside of CA feel this way though. That was wrong of me and I am sorry I said that. It is more likely that this sort of attitude is going to be found at large and medium firms, government agencies, well-known NGO’s and district attorneys’ offices. I realize that my advice and opinion are really only applicable to those that are seeking an online law degree program and would like to practice law in the traditional sense without opening a solo practice. If one thinks he might be interested in that sort of work, it would just be a shame to put in all of the time, effort, and money just to find oneself restricted at the end of the day.

The guides and opinions found on this forum are invaluable, and I think it’s great to provide visitors with information about distance learning options. That being said, I think it is important to point out the “limitations and lack of options” since not everyone that looks at the thread for advice may be aware of them. If one wants a career that would lead him/her to work closely with attorneys but not actually practice law, I think a DL JD is an incredible opportunity. However, the majority of potential students that consider law school would like to practice law. Had I done a Google search about DL law schools, this thread would have shown up. Personally, if I had no prior knowledge about the process but was interested in a law degree, I would definitely want to know about the limitations of actually practicing law with an unaccredited degree in a straight-forward, unadulterated sort of way.

Also, I don’t know if the ABA will ever accredit an online JD program, but they have accredited quite a few LLM programs over the past couple of years… so who knows!

I totally agree with CalDog about everything about apprenticeship. While there may not be a direct connection between the two methods of attaining the experience required in order to sit for the CA bar, my point was simply that there is an alternative route to becoming a lawyer in CA that does not require law school.

I am fully aware of the fact the BLS is not the best law school out there (it’s ranked in the 60s). However, it is in the top 100 and outranks many schools in its market. Further, I am in the top 2% of my class and will be graduating 100% debt free. The school is pretty generous about its merit scholarship stipulations (I only had to remain in the top 80% of my class). I’m not too worried about getting BigLaw since I’ve gotten a taste of it and I’m not really into that lifestyle.

That being said, you are right that traditional routes to a JD can be quite expensive. On the other hand, if a prospective student chooses a state school or gets a large merit aid package, it can also be very inexpensive. Also, these students could potentially keep their full-time jobs if they chose a part-time program.

I did not read through all of the threads on this forum about a DL law degree. I simply read through this particular thread and I believed that OP was intending to actually practice law. It seems like OP has considered many career paths and is not one of the mid-career professionals you speak of. I was just giving my opinion as it relates to practicing law with an unaccredited JD.











Once again, I think that a DL JD can be a great choice for the right candidate, but let the buyer beware.

I am truly sorry if I offended anyone.

 

Thanks for the welcome! ☺
I wholeheartedly agree that distance learners deserve the right to study the law by alternative means. I also agree with sideman; having a working knowledge of the law can be a great asset in many fields.
I apologize, but I was not being presumptuous or merely opinionated when I said that a DL law degree is a “joke of the legal profession”. I was basing that on actual experience. I interned at 4 separate big law firms, including one LA office. Whenever someone from a DL law school submitted a resume with hopes of being hired, those resumes truly were the butt of many jokes. I should not have said “all” attorneys outside of CA feel this way though. That was wrong of me and I am sorry I said that. It is more likely that this sort of attitude is going to be found at large and medium firms, government agencies, well-known NGO’s and district attorneys’ offices. I realize that my advice and opinion are really only applicable to those that are seeking an online law degree program and would like to practice law in the traditional sense without opening a solo practice. If one thinks he might be interested in that sort of work, it would just be a shame to put in all of the time, effort, and money just to find oneself restricted at the end of the day.

The guides and opinions found on this forum are invaluable, and I think it’s great to provide visitors with information about distance learning options. That being said, I think it is important to point out the “limitations and lack of options” since not everyone that looks at the thread for advice may be aware of them. If one wants a career that would lead him/her to work closely with attorneys but not actually practice law, I think a DL JD is an incredible opportunity. However, the majority of potential students that consider law school would like to practice law. Had I done a Google search about DL law schools, this thread would have shown up. Personally, if I had no prior knowledge about the process but was interested in a law degree, I would definitely want to know about the limitations of actually practicing law with an unaccredited degree in a straight-forward, unadulterated sort of way.

Also, I don’t know if the ABA will ever accredit an online JD program, but they have accredited quite a few LLM programs over the past couple of years… so who knows!

I totally agree with CalDog about everything about the apprenticeship. While there may not be a direct connection between the two methods of attaining the experience required in order to sit for the CA bar, my point was simply that there is an alternative route to becoming a lawyer in CA that does not require law school.

I am fully aware of the fact the BLS is not the best law school out there (it’s ranked in the 60s). However, it is in the top 100 and outranks many schools in its market. Further, I am in the top 2% of my class and will be graduating 100% debt free. The school is pretty generous about its merit scholarship stipulations (I only had to remain in the top 80% of my class). I’m not too worried about getting BigLaw since I’ve gotten a taste of it and I’m not really into that lifestyle.

That being said, you are right that traditional routes to a JD can be quite expensive. On the other hand, if a prospective student chooses a state school or gets a large merit aid package, it can also be very inexpensive. Also, these students could potentially keep their full-time jobs if they chose a part-time program.

I did not read through all of the threads on this forum about a DL law degree. I simply read through this particular thread and I believed that OP was intending to actually practice law. It seems like OP has considered many career paths and is not one of the mid-career professionals you speak of. I was just giving my opinion as it relates to practicing law with an unaccredited JD.








Once again, I think that a DL JD can be a great choice for the right candidate, but let the buyer beware.

I am truly sorry if I offended anyone.

 

Thanks for the clarifications. Just one further comment: the ABA does not accredit or approve LLM programs. The ABA's only concern is with JD programs (they make one small exception for the US Army JAG School, which does not offer the JD).

If an ABA-approved school wants to offer an LLM program, the ABA checks to make sure that this will not affect the quality of the JD program. But that's all that they check. The ABA does not evaluate or approve the LLM program itself.

So ABA-approved law schools have far more freedom and flexibility with LLM programs than with JD programs. With traditional JD enrollments falling, law schools are now promoting LLM programs, and also other law-related non-Bar degrees (like the Master's of Policy, Master's of Legal Studies, etc.). And there are no restrictions against offering such degrees by DL.

 

Agreed. As I've noted previously in this thread, the DL JD will probably turn out to be a mistake for many (perhaps most) students, given the low overall success rates.

On the other hand, let's not forget that DL law school is (relatively) cheap. You can afford to make a mistake in this regard, and it won't necessarily mess up the rest of your life.

Can we say the same about traditional B&M law school? There are probably people in your BLS class who are accumulating six figures worth of non-dischargeable debt to get their JD, and yet have little to no chance of finding high-paying jobs after graduation. Could this totally mess up the rest of their lives ? If so, then let the buyer beware even more.