Bill Grover Unplug Yourself

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Issues , not people, should be our main targets.

 

Coming from someone who doesn't know the difference between there and their and, if I am not mistaken, openly admitted it on this forum.

Tell you what, smart guy, you and I are both in graduate school in South Africa (I will be, that is, in Janaury.), so let's make a gentlemen's bet right here on the open and public forum.

I bet I end up with a higher GPA from the Free State than you do from SATS.

 

Bill Grover, you may well incline toward Nestorius and I toward Cyril,


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Unk

My final chap of the UZ dissertation which I will begin to research, coincidentally with chap 4 , next week, will contain a section on the Lutheran view of the hypostatic union. I just ordered Pieper's 4 vol set and Jensen's first vol , The Triune God. At this time I also have, and like, Dorn's 4 vol set and of course the Lutheran standards in Schaff's Creeds. Is there something else I should get to better enable me to present conservative Lutheranism on Christology?

 

One can quote Quakers till the cows come home (bucolic metaphor). It doth not an ESR degree make.

BTW, in many face to face discussions, the late Elton Trueblood made it quite clear to me that he believed in the Holy Trinity and that Jesus was true God and true man--and not simply in the Quaker sense of "that of God in every man". Elton's sense of his own importance could be hard to take, quite frankly. Fogginess and deception, however, were utterly foriegn to his nature. Requiescat in pace.

 

Hi Bill. Jensen (Jenson?) is very liberal, but will give you a sense of the status doctrinae on this stuff in the ELCA. The refs in Pieper will represent conservative Lutheranism in a satisfactory way. The condensation of Pieper, "Christian Dogmatics" by John T. Mueller, will give you much of the same information in briefer compass. Mueller presents the communicatio idiomatum with as much clarity as possible. Also, Heinrich Schmid's "Doctrinal Theology of the Evangeical Lutheran Church" (Augsburg P.H., out of print) gives lengthy catenae of quotes from the Lutheran dogmaticians of the 17th century. Finally, "The Two Natures in Christ" by the confessor Martin Chemnitz is *the* classic book. If these are not in libraries near you, ask any nearby Wisconsin Synod or Missouri Synod pastor.

 

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Thanks. Will get Chemnitz. Yep CBD has it and I ordered it!

 

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If I am wrong I will admit it. I seem to recall Calvin saying Arius admitted Jesus was God. I have never read anything anywhere regarding Arius' saying this. Since no complete works of Arius have survived, thanks to his opponents, we may never know his complete theology.

Bill, I do have a question for you. Of course this is purely speculative. I have read time and time again (sorry no primary source, ha) that the Vatican has locked in its vaults the original manuscripts. Where did this belief come from?

 

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of what? Scriptures? I doubt that, but I don't know what the Vatican has in its vaults.

 

I never said it did. I simply stated a fact and it has nothing to do with the Trinity even though this thread is germane to that particular topic.

I had a discussion with Trueblood in his library on the Earlham campus one Saturday. I was out collecting signatures to get John Anderson on the Indiana GOP ballot. Trueblood refused to sign it and when I asked why he said he didn't think Anderson was much of a man.

He invited me into his library and we had a very interesting discussion about his and my views. I called him on some views that were not in sync with his book The People Called Quakers and he basically stated he changed his mind.

Now, once and for all, ESR was part of my educational experience. No, I did not graduate from there and never held myself out to have done so. There is nothing wrong with one sharing one's experiences and the education one received.

Had I been able to afford it I would have continued and graduated from ESR but I didn't, plain and simple.

 

FOR BILL GROVER

Well, Bill, this has been fun and interesting. I do admit I have learned some things from you and I thank you. I really would like to read your dissertation when completed, I mean that very sincerely.

I will not be on here for awhile. I have six more courses left at CCHS and I want to complete them by June. I have two more (Hebrew I and II) at GSST and I want to get those out of the way as soon as possible because my dissertation for the Free State will begin in January and I want to devote a lot of time to it.

Perhaps the day will come when those holding degrees from Yale, Harvard, etc., who studied Greek, will agree on the meanings of words. Isn't it interesting how two people can study Greek at some of our finest institutions and come away with different interpretations?

Unitarian ministers are among the most highly educated of the denominations. They study Greek yet they don't say the Greek shows Jesus is God. Others, studying the same Greek, take the opposite opinion, go figure.

The Rev. Dr. Forrest Church, is a Harvard graduate. I have a number of his books. In one, God And Other Famous Liberals, (which by the way I don't like the title), he says, concerning the Bible about the Trinity, "evidence for the existence of a triune God is at best only sporadically implicit, and never actually proclaimed."

You and others have said it is proclaimed. Is a Harvard graduate that ignorant or do we just have two beliefs and opinions about what the Greek says? I go with the latter.

Church earned his M.Div. from Harvard Divinity School and his Ph.D. from Harvard University. Why is his understanding of the Biblical languages wrong?

Well, take care and I will talk to you down the road. I will definitely study the Doctrine of Jesus Christ, like I promised someone I would. Who knows, I may have a completely different point of view when I am finished.

P.S. By the way, CMT, Unk and AlnEstn, no hard feelings. I was sarcastic at times but hey, all in good fun.

 

Jimmy

Arius and Athanasius , Nestorius and and many of the framers of Chalcedon, which, of course was written in Greek, all had Greek as their native tongue; yet they disagreed.

I don't find that surprising. Greek is just a tool , and even with it we still see through a glass darkly.

Good "luck" with your studies,

 

Jimmy - You may want to reconsider this bet. As I understand it, research doctoral students at UFS don't really get "grades" as there really are no "courses" on which to be graded. You just kinda re-enroll in the same research course over and over and over and over until you finish. Then you get your degree. No grades (no real transcripts either).
Jack

 

Don't bet on it.
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Proverbs 26:18-19

 

Hi Jack: My post was not in reply to yours! Beste wense for your studies at UVS. Thanks for adding more truth to this weird thread.

Hi Bill Grover: Attaboy! Frankly, I've always liked the "second Martin" better than the "first" (sic). I need to reread 2NC; if you want to tackle it in tandem, e-mail me and we can discuss it.
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Does anybody know if Martin Chemnitz and the loony pagan wife of General Ludendorff, Mathilde von Kemnitz, were related?

 

Thank you Jack and uncle janko for your responses to this little challenge. I am biting my tongue, and attempting to give no responses back to the one who offered up this interesting tid bit. I wanted to say what you did Jack, and after janko started quoting Scripture, I could think of a few interesting passages myself! But I will refrain.

 

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I know this, Jack. I am, after all, going to begin my dissertation in January. I was being sarcastic. I know how research doctorates work.

Here is a link to refute Trinitarianism using the very NT verses you, Bill, use to justify it. See you in about six months when I have my accredited M.S. Yea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I will post one more time when I get the source of the Calvin quote since I promise you, Bill.

 

I had to post for 3 reasons.

1. I never got a satisfactory answer to the question that this thread was dedicated to, "Does Bill Grover's PM mailbox now work?"

2. Let everyone know that this is the longest thread in the Off-topic forum since the Dixie Chicks thread (98 posts).

3. Help get this thread over 98 posts.

 

Yes, Bill Huffman, there is no cyberconstipation.

 

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