Bear & Anti-Creationist Site

Steve,

Thanks for the complement. Coming from you, it really means something! I may have another little bit of trivia that you already may know:

The reason Walter Martin used the name "Melodyland" was that Melodyland was a theatre used for plays and other productions--sort of Southern California's "Off Broadway." When I was a kid in the 60s, my parents took me to a couple of shows there.

When Walter, et al purchased the building in the 70s, the prospect of purchasing all new signage must have been too daunting, so they added "School of Theology" to the Melodyland name. A good friend who played in a band with me was a Martin disciple, so he took me to Melodyland a few times to see Martin and try to convert me via Christian rock bands. Since I'm now in a Mormon Bishopric, it obviously didn't work.

Incidentally, Melodyland used to be located across from Disneyland. It was demolished to make room for hotels and Martin moved all operations closer to his home in San Juan Capistrano. I seem to remember that another person, Harold Lindsell, was also involved with Martin and Montgomery in the founding of Greenleaf.

Tony

 

"Merism"? Hunh. I like the term.

Well, I am NOT saying that "a" god created all things. As I said, Elohim is a NAME not a DESCRIPTION.

I am not equipped to discuss theology; I meant it when I said "Jews don't do theology". Instead, Jews do law. That is why we read the text very closely and follow a set of interpretation rules designed to discover the law in any given case.

Please don't misunderstand. I am as Reform as it gets but to me that means reinterpreting Torah in a consistant manner appropriate to the present human condition. Since I believe that Torah is a human document that reflects its times I believe that Jews are REQUIRED to reinterpret the Tradition to do justice whenever and wherever they live.

Even MORE stuffedshirtedness! My apologies to all the REAL scholars out there.

Nosborne, JD
(Who doesn't know what he's talking about!)

 

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Nosborne, if you have time and are disposed to, could you explain exactly what position Torah holds in Reformed Judaism? ( Be wary that you don't go against the dictum that "Jews don't do Theology" , though, as 'epistemolgy' or 'Bibliology' certainly is a part of theology. In my system it is the first part). But it seems from your above post that Torah has a function in your faith. So, for example, does
Torah have authority over beliefs and practice? Why or why not? This is certainly not a challenge but only a desire to better understand.


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yep!

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Oh dear!

I can't claim to speak for any Jew, Reform or otherwise, besides myself!

Well, a little history, perhaps.

So-called Orthodox Judaism is founded on the principal that God whispered every word of Torah into Moses' ear and Moses wrote it down. Not only Torah, but also the baraitot, the Oral Law that takes the form of sayings and phrases. As a result, the older an authority is, the greater weight is accorded his opinion, because it is "closer to Sinai". Whether to accept the Oral Law was the cheif difference between the Pharisees and the Saducces, BTW.

By no means do ALL Orthodox scholars ascribe to this view, of course. Some go so far as to say Moses received only the Ten Commandments on Sinai. But in general, the Orthodox position looks something like my description.

Now, in the beginning of the ninteenth century C.E., nation states in Western Europe began to emancipate Jews from their ghetto isolation. Along with receiving the rights of citizenship came the right to pursue secular education and practice the professions. This whole development became the "haskalah", or Enlightenment.

German Rabbis became exposed to the sciences, including archeology, linguistics, theology, and other learning from their Christian neighbors. Also, Jews found that they could not remain spiritually isolated and still participate in the life of the larger community. Thus, Reform.

Reform views Torah as the textual product of centuries of Jewish experience as a people responding to the world and to whatever God might be. It is ours to use, but we treat it with the great reverence it is due as the central expression of our civilization.

Does this help?

Nosborne, JD
(Who needs to quit shooting his mouth off!)

 

Interesting trivia - I actually didn't know the history of Melodyland, although I was aware of its proximity to Disneyland. I have to admit to committing a cardinal sin, however; in my entire time at Simon Greenleaf (during which I lived in Fullerton), I never visited Disneyland. (The closest I got was a bookstore located on the periphery of Knott's Berry Farm, as well as a Deseret Book Store nearby, which is where I bought my copies of the Browns' wonderfully scandalous books.)

If anything, you have an advantage on me. One of the reasons I chose to go to Greenleaf was the combination of Montgomery, Martin, and Lindsell. By the time I got to SoCal, Martin had been given the left foot of fellowship from SGSL as Dean of the M.A. programs, possibly due to his mickey-mouse doctorate and the fact that SGSL had hit associate status with WASC. Martin was relegated to the title of Visiting Lecturer at that point, and never again referred to in SGSL's literature as Doctor Martin. Ultimately, I never heard Martin in person, although I had heard his taped lectures for a number of years; the one time a few of us went to hear him at a church at which he was teaching he was out sick, and was replaced that morning by John Stewart, another SGSL outcast (who had been given the boot because he had written the legal agreement resulting in the $165,000 payoff from Jim Baaker to Jessica Hahn - despite the fact that Stewart was not a member of the bar, thus he was practicing law without a license).

In terms of reputation, Montgomery-Martin-Lindsell was a winning combination in theory. Lindsell, then otherwise retired, was actually the most fun guy, a clasical old-line Fundie who had written a knockout book called The Battle for the Bible in which he trashed anyone and everyone. Although I didn't take his course, I used to sit in on his lectures for the hell of it and, had I remained at SGSL, he would have been my thesis advisor. Lindsell taught by essentially reading from his own books, but managed to make his lectures quite powerful with his Brooklyn-esque delivery.

Montgomery, of course, would get the boot after the board at SGSL got fed up with his various antics (ranging from using an SGSL radio show to advertise his own legal practice to his divorce from Joyce Montgomery), and probably with his toupeé, which was one of the worst ever created. SGSL was not the first school he had alienated, and when he left, he started an M.A. in Theology and Law at the distance ed Faith Seminary, run by renegade Lutherans in Washington (which I have called a degree mill). Unfortunately, Faith printed up a brochure for the program which listed Montgomery's so-called law degree from a correspondence school that had been shut down by the Federal Trade Commission and, needless to say, he went ballistic and alientated himself from yet another U.S. school, after which he moevd to London full-time to teach at then-Luton College. Leter, he became the so-called V.P. of European operations for Trinity (the degree mill in Newburgh). The man is (or at least was) quite brilliant, but is an example of someone whose reputation can be questioned by the presence of one questionable degree (among several prestigious degrees) as well as one of the biggest prima donnas I have ever met.

Simon Greenleaf, essentially, was a noble experiment gone bad due to abuse and administrative incompetence, yet they gained immediate regional accreditation when the Trinity folks (the legit university in Deerfield, not the Newburgh degree mill) took over. Since I saw the writing on the wall by November of the semester I was there, I decided to wash out the whole thing, but I do have to credit them for orienting me toward graduate education and providing a springboard for the program I ultimately did at Vermont College of Norwich University, which had its regional accreditation.

 

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Nosborne

Thanks for taking the time to respond. So your position is that the Torah should be revered because it is part of the Jewish experience not because--as higher criticism has shown ,you feel-- it was given originally by God. Is that right?

You are very kind to give your time in this regard.

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The Sabbath Debate

Since this was such an interesting topic and group (myself excluded) and since the discussion seems to be waning, why don't you also solve the Sabbath-keeping vs Sunday-keeping debate while you're in session? Here is some background information; talk amongst yourselves:

http://www.bible.ca/7-debate-porter-dugger.htm

http://www.bible.ca/sabbath-debate-frost-smith.htm

 

Steve,

I'm not sure how much of an advantage I have. I grew up in Brea, just north of Fullerton (about 10 miles from Disneyland and Melodyland). I was a teenager in the 70s, when Martin was in heyday and moved out of the area in the early 80s, so I did not have a chance to become aquinted with Greenleaf, other than Martin's claim to be a "Full Professor" there.

Steve, where can I get a copy of "Name it and Frame it"? I am presenting a paper on "The Good, The Bad and The Ugly of Distance Learning" at a national instructional technology conference and I think that your book would be an excellent source. Besides, you could make a couple of bucks in royalties.

Tony Pina
College of Education
California State University, San Bernardino