BA in 4 Weeks

Well after spending an hour drafting a reply, it seems to have disappeared. If I get a chance I'll retype the whole thing: in brief:

Lawrie, you took Ulrich out of context:

In specific his quote of

was discussing Europe with FRG, and clearly his meaning is that you don't get automatic recognition just because it is RA. It must be examined on a case-by-case basis in germany (I went to grad school with a German student, and he had to have his degree examined when he got back in order to use it for "practical" things--like listing it on his business card).

The rest of my post was strengthening my statement about RA as a minimal standard. Specifically all I view RA as attesting to is that some work is required for the degree. I do not view it as attesting that the amount, quality or type of work is deserving of the degree. Why? Becuase in the US a graduate of a good undergraduate program is likely better trained, better qualified, and has more field specific knowledge than an MA/MS/MBA from a mediocre school, and even some RA PhDs (and with a thesis might have done more original, important work).

To conclude, Some RA degrees in the US are just garbage--they are not an indication that the person has amassed the knowlege represented by the degree title.

 

Ulrich's expressed position was not as you have stated. Come now, be real. You're extrapolating in a direction necessary to support an otherwise vacuous position.

Ulrich had plenty of opportunity *after* the statements were made and restated in a different form, to challenge my interpretation of his position. He did not do so. He chose to *defend* the position you now claim I misinterpreted. If I was misrepresenting his position, why did he not say so? The plain fact is there *was* no misinterpretation, no misrepresentation, and, for the nth time, no citation!

I invite you to read the whole series of transactions between Ulrich and other posters, from his first interjection in the thread until now. You will then have a better feel for the context in which Ulrich made the statements you quote above, and be more secure in your guidance of others.

Don't you think it perhaps a little presumptuous that you appoint yourself as the arbiter of meaning in this case? Some might consider it the height of hubris. Again, read the complete series of exchanges. Additionally, Ulrich and I are not complete strangers, and I've been through this process of misdirection and obfuscation with him before. This aint nothin' new.

As to your "controversial" revelations; you are aping an oft expressed opinion, nothing new there, but I agree with a good part of the substance nevertheless. I view regional accreditation as a matter of utility. We need some procedural mechanism for bestowing "basic worth"
on higher education institutions. In the States the de facto vehicle is regional accreditation (regardless of the other claimants). Your expressed view that some RA degrees are "garbage" is of no practical use unless you name them. Which RA degrees from which institutions are garbage, Gerstl? Relating this information, I am sure, would be of great help to many who read this board and require some guidance choosing a suitable institution and a suitable degree program. It would, I think, warrant a separate thread of it's own. So, please give us some little taster by detailing a few "garbage" RA institutions and specific degrees. Be sure to include your reasons for listing and perhaps examples where it can be shown the quality is so poor as to reasonably warrant the award of "garbage degree".

Which regionally accredited institutions and degrees are "garbage"? Such a listing would perhaps serve many (and irk many more).

Could you be clear on another point too: what do you think of degrees earned by proficiency examinations?

 

Be careful Gerstl.
Lawrie always begins that way.

L. Miller asked : What about the DL degree earned entirely by way of proficiency examinations?

I answered : In my opinion, and I am not alone, it's not completely a university education.

It is the crime I committed.

Lawrie, you wrote : These three are known as assessment institutions, since they can be used to collect and collate credit from disparate origins. When enough credit of the correct type and in the correct proportions has been earned, these institutions will then award the student an accredited bachelor's degree that will find near universal recognition in the United States and in large portions of the rest of the world (excepting the FRG by all accounts).

Lawrie, you assert that these institutions will then award the student an accredited bachelor's degree that will find near universal recognition in large portions of the rest of the world (excepting the FRG by all accounts).

In large portion of the word ? Could you please list the countries, especially the European countries. You assert that degrees like that are recognized. Could you please mention your sources (official sources of course) . I am not very demanding. Just an official European source that confirms the recognition of degrees like yours. A source in Italy, in France, in Austria, in Switzerland or in Belgium would be fine. Thank you.
You wrote : except in FRG by all accounts.
Is it an opinion ? Could you please give the sources (official of course). The opinions of P. Glaeser, Trigger or Ulrich are not acceptable. And your opinion ...

Are you asserting facts that you cannot prove.

Is Mr Miller's Bachelor of Art recognized in France and in Italy ?
CIMEA - Fondazione Rui in Rome 39/6/86.32.12.81
Bureau DRIC du Ministère de l'Education nationale, de la recherche et de la technologie in Paris.
DRIC 33/1/55.55.04.21
Be clear with them. Nontraditional, credits by examination, no thesis,...

Best regards.

Ulrich

 

No I don't say that, Ulrich. To parse the statement, what I say is that such degrees will find near universal recognition in the United States, and, [also, will find recognition] in large portions of the rest of the world. It would be an oxymoron to talk about [near] UNIVERSAL recognition in [large] PARTS of the world. While I was not too happy with the use of "near" as a modifier, I would not talk of universal recognition in PARTS of anything. It just doesn't make sense. It's a fine line and I agree that perhaps the statement should be amended to remove any ambiguity. I'll certainly do that. I'll go further, I should not even have said *that* much. The original unrevised version said "wide acceptance in the US", and that was it. I added the rest without thinking it through properly, while trying to produce a series of articles that would be easy to read and easy to understand, and that might help mature adults realize their dream of an accredited degree. Terrible. So, sue me. The statement just shouldn't be there at all. Period. It is unacceptable and will be removed.

However, having said that, subsequent utterances in this thread make it clear that I think acceptance would be on a case by case basis, and that US degree holders would find the same kind of barriers and obstacles European degree holders would find in the US. Remarkably, that appears to be a position *you* now seem to claim to have held all along. Dear me. How did that happen? I invite those interested to read from the start of the exchange and draw there own conclusions.

Now, I think we have already agreed, using your latest amended version of your position, that US RA degrees will indeed find recognition (to some as yet undefined extent) in the European Union. Therefore, there is no argument there. That is, your latest professed position is as mine. Or are you saying that that is *not* your position?

Well, duh, Ulrich, you first, that is what I've been asking you to do for days and all we've gotten is whining about how bad I've been to you. I never mentioned Europe at all. Hell Ulrich, I might just do that anyway, citing requirements for graduate study. The problem with proving there are *no* really onerous restrictions on use of foreign degrees in a country is much more difficult that proving there *are* such restrictions (which is what *you* were supposed to do). If you say the use of RA degrees is so restricted (i.e. have little practical utility) then that prohibition will be be documented somewhere, in at least one source text (probably many). However, if there is no such restriction, how does one demonstrate that? All *I* can do is say that I find no evidence of such restrictions. If employers in say, Holland, are prepared to accept my Business degree along with my experience as sufficient evidence of competence to offer me a job, that is anecdotal evidence. Great for me but not sufficient on which to base a case of general acceptance, since another employer may exhibit a different attitude toward foreign degrees. However, if the same employer says, "sorry. Section 3 paragraph 6 of employment code amendment 1997, says your degree is not acceptable", then we do have proof that is generally applicable. I can tell you that in the UK, I know for a fact that there was pretty well general (nearly said near universal) acceptance of regionally accredited degrees for the purposes of entry into graduate programs. I can even give you the required range of GPA, I looked at so many instances. I can also tell you that it is my experience that holders of US degrees in the UK do not suffer greatly due to employer prejudice or government regulation. When in the UK I hired a total of three US degree holders. Two with bachelor's and one Ph.D. (University of Hawaii). And guess what, the UK is in EUROPE, Ulrich.

In addition, I've gone through the entrance requirements of several European universities in Belgium, Holland, Denmark, UK, Ireland, Sweden, and so far have found NO listed restriction on the use of a U.S. RA bachelor's degree for the purposes of entry into their postgraduate (equals US graduate) programs. For each country I chose several institutions at random. This is not enough. Where I have contact addresses I've emailed to ask specifically about US bachelor's, and US DL bachelor's, and US DL bachelor's by examination. The sense I get from reading loads of these admission pages is that where there may be doubt, such cases are dealt with on their merits. That is, on the face of it, from the wording and other contexts, most seem to be implying a US RA degree would be acceptable, and certainly there is no general policy as it relates to the NON ACCEPTANCE of U.S. regionally accredited degrees, be they residential, distance, or whatever. Further, I could find no official restriction (so far) in these countries as it relates to the use of a US degree in pursuit of one's livelihood. This would of course excluded regulated professions such as physicians, lawyers, dentists, and on. When I complete (get the email returns) the task I'll post the results.

Now Ulrich, why didn't you do this? You still have given no useful citations. All you've done is yelp about the unfairness of it all. What are you doing? Let's be clear, I am not the one claiming anything vis-a-vis Europe, you are.

No Ulrich, opinion is not acceptable when you write it as if it is fact. If one says it *is*, rather than "I believe it may be", then you are going to be hard pressed to argue it's clearly opinion. It wasn't and you know it.

In the mean time. Post something, anything, that corroborates your contention that RA degrees will not find recognition in Europe. Oh, I forgot, that's not your position any more, is it? You now say such degrees will find "some difficulty" in "some areas".

By the way, what *is* this? Either you spoke to these people noted above or you did not. Which is it? This is the third time of asking. You say you spoke to them, though again, I note you've dropped that statement from your quoted text. How Convenient. If you spoke to them and they gave you an answer, what was that answer?

 

Hi Lawrie.

You wrote : I think acceptance would be on a case by case basis. US degree holders would find the same kind of barriers and obstacles European degree holders would find in the US.

It's very deep, Lawrie. Thank you. It's true. Recognition problems can arise everywhere.
But don't try to make us believe that I asserted the opposite.
You will be surprised but I know the problem. I can give you two examples.
a)
A German university degree like the Diplom is not considered equivalent to a Master degree by the US universities. Most American universities (Cornell for example) require six semesters in a German university to enter their graduate schools. But, nine semesters at least are needed to earn a Diplom.
b)
Many US universities don't accept students with degrees from German Fachhochscuhlen (universities of applied sciences)in their graduate schools.

YOU, Lawrie, mentioned the UNIVERSAL RECOGNITION. And case by case is far from universal.

My major intention was to inform that Germany is not a special case. Evaluation commissions can be found in France and in Italy for example and they can be very conservative.
THAT'S ALL !

You wrote : The problem with proving there are *no* really onerous restrictions on use of foreign degrees in a country is much more difficult that proving there *are* such restrictions (which is what *you* were supposed to do). If you say the use of RA degrees is so restricted (i.e. have little practical utility) then that prohibition will be be documented somewhere, in at least one source text (probably many).

As usually, you are dishonest.
I never said that the use of RA degrees is very restricted.
There is a little difference between a traditional degree from a RA school and a degree earned by examination, even if the school that awarded the degree is RA. It's sad but true.
I wrote that degrees earned by examination are unlikely to be accepted by the commission nationale d'equivalence in France, for example and in some other countries.
Cobuild Dictionary : if you say that something is unlikely to happen you mean that it will probably not happen.
I DID NOT write that degrees earned by examination WILL NOT BE accepted by the ...
I NEVER ASSERTED THAT RA DEGREES HAVE LITTLE PRACTICAL UTILITY. If Larry McQueary, with his degree from Regents, wanted to work in the computer industry in Switzerland he could find a good job more easily than me.
I mentioned the official, the academic and the professional recognition and NOT the pratical utility. I don't know about the practical utility. I said : if your degree is not recognized there are disadvantades. It's evident.

You wrote : I've emailed to ask specifically about US bachelor's, and US DL bachelor's, and US DL bachelor's by examination. The sense I get from reading loads of these admission pages is that where there may be doubt, such cases are dealt with on their merits.

What does it mean ? They told you that they will evaluate your degree. Nothing more. Where are your official sources and your scientific rigour.
Ask the Network of National Academic Recognition Information an evaluation of your degre. My treat.

You wrote : I've gone through the entrance requirements of several European universities in Belgium, Holland, Denmark, UK, Ireland, Sweden, and so far have found NO listed restriction on the use of a U.S. RA bachelor's degree for the purposes of entry into their postgraduate (equals US graduate) programs.

I suppose you propected for programmes taught in English. They are based on the system Bachelor-Master. " There was no listed restriction on the use of US RA degree ". HOPEFULLY, my dear ! Their aim is to facilitate the admission of students with foreign credentials.

You refuse to understand. Your degree is a RA degree, but it is also a bachelor earned by examination.
The university where you want to study will evaluate your previous education. And yes Sir, they will take into account how you earned your credits. THEY WILL EVALUATE. AS YOU SAID, CASE BY CASE. Don't tire me with the RA Bachelors as a whole.

You wrote : Post something, anything, that corroborates your contention that RA degrees will not find recognition in Europe

I NEVER WROTE THAT. NEVER.
ONCE MORE. I wrote that degrees earned by examination are unlikely to be accepted by the commission nationale d'equivalence in France, for example and in some other countries.

Now CIMEA and DRIC.
Yes. They answered my questions very gently.
It was an informal conversation and I know you. Therefore I decided to write to them. I am now waiting for the written answers.
Et je prie pour que les reponses arrivent le plus vite possible.

Ulrich

 

You know, I'm getting a little tired of your hissy fits. Time to put up or shut up. You've back peddled on everything else, so let's try this: you said you'd called the organizations you listed in France and Italy about the acceptance or otherwise of my degrees. You have consistently refused to tell us what they said. Tell us what they said "informally". Nothing wrong in that. Unless of course you did not talk to them about my degrees and this is just more BS.

The idea behind degreeinfo.com was to create a haven from socially challenged trolls and the irrelevant back biting in AED. This thread was about getting a BA by examination but has now deteriorated into a romper room for your tantrums. You're wasting my time.

 

Yes, it is, because:

Which means:

Six semesters of university study are seen as an equivalent to a completed British-American-style undergraduate study.

... and ...

Diplom or Magister degree are seen as equivalents to completed British-American-style graduate degrees.

 

I'm restricting myself to the American issue.

Not always.

The following guidelines indicate the level of study expected of applicants prior
to graduate enrollment at the University of Washington. Minimum qualifications: University-Diplom or Magister Artium (eight semesters), Diplom(FH) Fachhochschule (eight semesters), in addition, must submit certificate (zeugnis) of completion of the Abitur, Staatsexamen - erste Juristische Staatsprufung - first state law examination, (at least seven semesters).
Holders of the Vordiplom or Zwischenprufung are not eligible for graduate admission.

The University of Washington is not a unique case.
Fuer ein M.S. oder Ph.D. Studium an der UCSB ist i.A. ein abgeschlossenes Diplom erforderlich. (D.h. zum Zeitpunkt des Studienbeginns in den USA sollten Sie das Diplom haben.) http://www.cs.ucsb.edu/germany/faq

Are you saying that in the USA Diplom or Magister are seen as equivalents to US Master degrees ?

In my opinion, more often than not a Diplom or a Magister is seen equivalent to a Bachelor plus one year in a graduate school.
That's all.

In http://www.cepes.ro/hed/recogn/groups/guideusa.htm

They write :

" Access of European Students to Doctoral Studies in the U.S.A.

As for the continental western European countries, Austria, Germany,Switzerland, the Netherlands, and the Flemish-speaking community of Belgium feel that students who have completed the Magister degree, the Lizentiaat, the Licence,the Diplom, the Staatsexamen, or the doctoraal are not receiving full recognition for their work. These programmes are complete units of specialized studies (usually two subjects) of 4 to 5 years minimum which are structured into undergraduate and graduate study phases (divided by a Vordiplom). They require a research thesis of 80 to 100 pages plus the passing of comprehensive final diploma examinations before a board of examiners. The feeling is that these graduates should be admitted directly to doctoral studies without being required to take additional master's courses. "

 

I'm currently well on my way to a BS CIS from Excelsior. This information was by far the most comprehensive and useful I found when deciding to pursue a degree (I'm interested in teaching, and although my background and capabilities should allow me to do so, in public institutions I have a few hurdles to jump by not having a degree). In a few weeks I'll be 90 credits in, and hopefully only a CS GRE will be left.

I've been using the books mentioned here as a template for my studies (when necessary), but unfortunately it looks like the Ethics text is out of print. Do you have any suggestiosn on a book? I'd love something along the lines of the Barrons EZ-101 series, as it was perfect for the Psych and EduPsych CLEPs. I'm unable to find any outline/survey kind-of-books on the subject...

Thanks...
Hanee Patenaude

 

Thanks Lawrie for this info.

I have a question regarding the math requirements for both Excelsior and TESC. It looks like you used College Math to satisfy the math requirement for the BSBA degree. Is that acceptable to the schools in question?
I have had trouble determining what tests I need to take as the schools are reluctant to tell you before enrollment. I want to test before I enroll.

Excelsior states that they want precalculus but College Algebra is listed as an acceptable CLEP.

TESC states that they want precalculus but it must be Algebra AND Trigonometry.It looks like their math requirement is more stringent.

I was thinking about a concentration in CIS but wondering if I would need additional math for that. I want to take the minimum.
Does anyone have any insight in this area?

 

Lawrie - You stated "I found the mock exams (listed elsewhere) very good predictors of actual performance on forty (40) occasions."

Where would I find this list of mock exams?

Thanks;

Al

 

@ Ulrich & Peter:

Sadly enough a German Diplom/Magister/Staatsexamen with an OFFICIAL study period of 9 to 10 semesters (which realistically means at least 12 semesters of REAL study time, if not even more) is indeed very often not being seen as equivalent to a US master´s degree.

That´s why Germany, Austria and Switzerland are introducing the Bachelor-and-Master - system in these days.

But to be realistic - a German Diplom is definitely "worth" a lot more than a US bachelor´s, and in my personal opinion totally equivalent to a US master´s, since we have a more year of High School than the US students, in which me learn the liberal arts stuff - so that the 9-10 semesters of university time are totally speficic area studies, which the US system only does in the Master´s programs...

As for the FH-Diplom, there is mostly only a 7-semester-"Regelstudienzeit", so that there should really not be seen an equivalency to a US master´s diploma. Besides, the FH-Diplom does (generally speaking) not qualify for doctoral studies, the University diploma does. And with a certification of your home university that your Diplom qualifies for doctoral studies there, I do not see bigger problems in the process of being admitted to US PhD-studies (which you can see on the DAAD-website, for example). British universities all accept the German diplomas for PhD studies, so why shouldn´t the American ones?

Greets,
Trigger

 

Hi Al,

There is a comprehensive exam listing in the body of the text in this thread. ECE/RCE mock exams are available free in PDF format from the Excelsior College Web site. CLEP mock exams can be found in the College Board publication "CLEP Official Study Guide". Dantes mock exams used to be available free at the DANTES web site, and are included in the $20 TECEP exam books available from TESC. Also available is a DANTES mock exam book from Thomson Learning - "DSST: The Official Test-Preparation Guide". Same stuff inside, I think. Most of this is noted (on several occasions, I think) in the body of the original posts in this thread.

The information in the original postings has limited shelf life, of course, as rules, practices, and organizations change. Suggest you visit the "BA in 4 Weeks" official web site (well, it was free) at
http://www.geocities.com/ba_in_4_weeks/

for more info, else I can be reached at [email protected]

Good luck

 

Lawrie;

Thanks for the information. I've checked out your site, it's great.

Thanks;

Al