BA in 4 Weeks - Journal Review of quality

Bill
Education is about acquiring and assimilating knowledge and understanding.

In a previous thread, Lawrie tried to argue that one's own

Lawrie
Didn't try to argue Bill, demonstrated. I note that you offered no rebuttal.

Bill
that broader definition of 'testing' isn't what is being referred to when we speak of 'certification' or receiving university credit through 'testing', is it?

Lawrie
It is what is being referred to in the tenet. Shifting the playing field again, huh.

Bill
The latter are external social measures that arguably make the results of the inner process objective and reliable for others to trust.

Lawrie:
I'm sorry Bill, you know I've always respected your opinion, but this is drivel. By no means all external testing is objective. Most is subjective. No matter which way you cut it, internal and external testing are both assessments and at the core not that different. This artificial division has no merit.

Bill
Obviously both are important and valuable. But education is prior to certification.

Lawrie
Now, are we talking about process here or learning, as in "an education"?
In terms of learning, it is unknown until it is tested. So, learning has zero relevance or meaningful existence before testing.

Education has no meaning except in terms of outcomes. Education has no intrinsic value that is not related to outcomes.
Outcomes are measured relative to some standard.
The measure is the difference between the mark and the outcome
Outcomes cannot be known other than by testing
If "learning" cannot be tested, it is unknowable
If "learning" has not been tested, it is unknown



Lawrie
What? How, Bill, How exactly do you establish education/learning without testing it. That is certification. Every test certifies.

Bill
That's true because many people have no need to have their growth in knowledge and understanding certified.

Lawrie
Certification is testing, testing is certification


Bill
A large part of people's educations is never certified.

Lawrie:
No bill, you cannot know if you have gained new competencies until you test for them. Testing is certification. Testing, objective or subjective is still 100% testing.

Bill
But even in more conventional academic subjects, education involves the ability to integrate our newly acquired knowledge with our existing understanding, and to deploy it in real world situations. It's hard to see how GRE or CLEP exams could capture that. The real test would be one's subsequent life after receiving the education, I guess.

Lawrie
It's hard to see? You are going to have to try three or four tests, first before you can really make a judgment. It will always be hard to see without some empirical data. You can't know this through contemplation Bill, try some tests. Reasonable tests. Try, say, CLEP accounting. CLEP Educational Psychology, the psych GRE exam. You have been trashing these for years now without any idea of what they are about. Did it ever occur to you to try them? If you go to my web site you can download sample GRE and other tests for free.

 

You're correct of course, Dennis. Even in the face of palpable success, some will seek to deny that success.

There are enablers and disablers. There are those who pontificate and say "can't", and those whose actions say "can".

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: BA in 4 Weeks - Journal Review of quality

Andy:
Bruce - you are correct. I was just hoping to hear "yes" or "no".

Lawrie
Why Andy? Why precisely does that interest me or you. How would that review help? The only meaningful study is of the kind I outlined at the beginning of this thread. What is the purpose, in this context of a review at this time?

Incidentally, will you amend that "review" you did. If the journal review were anything like that it would be laughable, would it not? Embarrassing. Not for me, for them.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: BA in 4 Weeks - Journal Review of quality

I'm not sure what you want amended. I read through what you suggested - and I pointed out a few concerns. That's all. I'm certainly not embarassed by what I said- nor should you be. As for reviewing article for academic journals - I've done this for the past five years. The editors certainly don't laugh at my reviews - they just keep sending more manuscripts. By the way, what's your experience in reviewing articles for journals?

I've simply raised a few methodology obstacles that you'd have to overcome if you ever hope to test your hypotheses. Realistically, what you've set out to do is quite unlikely to ever happen - so you can continue to harp on your opinions with no objective measure.

For the record, I don't doubt that your BA in 4 weeks approach may be an answer for some people. If a person is mid-career, is generally educated and has some credits but not a degree, following your method may help them earn a bachelor's degree from an RA school. The degree is certainly not a joke.

Will such a degree be from a highly regarded university? No. Will some people scorn the method - given the calls for "What's the easiest way I can get the most credits?" and "What's the MS with the fewest number of credits?" Yes. Is this method a valid replacement for traditional education for all students? Hardly.

Regards - Andy

 

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Andy, your review was a joke. It is telling you chose not to dispute the points. The less charitable might think it a particular irony that those admonishing others lack of standards and rigor, are often found to be feckless or incompetent.

In previous missives you have spoken of your feelings of inferiority. At the time I thought this a result of internal conflict with no basis in the real world. I see now that in that regard, I was wrong and you were right.

This conversation can serve no purpose anymore.


Lawrie Miller
author: BA in 4 Weeks and Accelerated Master's Degrees by Distance Learning
http://geocities.com/ba_in_4_weeks/

 

Statement:

"if you cannot distinguish/identify two sub-sets within a sample population by the tests devisable by an accepted test, then you cannot say with any credible degree of confidence that there is a difference between them."

Lawrie: you ask for clarification of meaning. I would have thought you would know, however, if it is not clear, let me re-state it another (longer) way:

You assert that no difference can be found between graduates of traditional on-campus BA programmes and non-traditional BA programmes based on accumulated credits and Tests (presumably from your data).

I have an inclination to accept that statement as plausible based not on Bachelor programmes but based on our statistical experience of EBS MBA programmes when the sub-set of Bachelor graduate entrants are compared to the performance of the sub-set of non-Bachelor graduates who enter our MBA after meeting the the 'pass two core subject examinations rule' at EBS. Our sample is over 150,000 MBA subject examinations, and both sub-sets are present.

Now, if your statements are doubted by anybody (not me - I am thinking of your many friends on degreeinfo.com) the test of your assertion is an empirical one and not an opinion:

'If they cannot predict to which sub-set a person belongs - they all belong to your sample population as graduates of their exam systems - on any measurable test, including adding attributes or characteristics you might not have considered, then they cannot conclude that there are differences between the sub-sets in the sample.'

Your assertion in these circumstances then is not disproven (following a Popper condition) and for most intents and purposes is acceptable (unless and until a new test is undertaken)..

Of course, if there are differences showing up in the tests (i.e., attributes of one of the sub-sets, call it 'x', predicts sub-set membership to some degree of probability) then your assertion is not confirmed, at least at this level of testing, and is disproven (the above caveat applying).

In short, I was supporting the methodolgy by which we can judge the validity or otherwise of your assertions. It appears you are so used to criticism that you do not recognise qualified support!

Lastly, you have no basis for assuming that my opening paragraph was referring to you in particular or at all or that it is 'derogatary' - I assume that you would agree with it. Taking things personally can develop into paronoia. Anyway, stick to the issues - we have more to learn that way. Education is also the acquisition of humility. All the Noble prizewinners I have met - (OK, the three of them) were noted for their extreme courtesy, modesty and patience with lesser mortals.

 

THE COMING

Professor Kennedy:

Lawrie:
I know what it was. My request for clarification was to ensure it was clear to everyone. It has to be spelt out. They are likely to believe you, some considerable time before they believe me. I was not challenging you, but saying, "could you explain that to the gallery, please?" And you did.

And it was good. And Lawrie said unto the naysayers, "He who hath spoken and drunk from the river of knowledge, hath come unto ye to bring ye the Word. This day ye shall kneel before the might of empirical evidence, and rational thought, and based on such evidence, employ appropriate research paradigms. Thou shalt eschew unsupported assertions and replace them with statements of truth based on verifiable data and accompanying citation".

And there was much ringing of hands and gnashing of teeth among the assembled tenured cognoscenti. And one of their number cried, "Lo , though I have long paid it lip service, I have never drunk from the river of knowledge, or practiced the teachings of the Gavin, or any other of that noble race of angels of the North, who doth dwell among us. I have pretended to know, but I know not. Woe! Woe!" . . . My pension, my pension.


Professor Kennedy:
Lastly, you have no basis for assuming that my opening paragraph was referring to you in particular or at all or that it is 'derogatary' - I assume that you would agree with it. Taking things personally can develop into paronoia. Anyway, stick to the issues - we have more to learn that way. Education is also the acquisition of humility. All the Noble prizewinners I have met - (OK, the three of them) were noted for their extreme courtesy, modesty and patience with lesser mortals. [/B][/QUOTE]

Lawrie:
Then it is done. The die is cast. Ne'er again thought that noble Nobel be mine. For I have little humility, since giving it away to those in this place who are of need of it more than I.




Lawrie Miller
author: BA in 4 Weeks and Accelerated Master's Degrees by Distance Learning
http://geocities.com/ba_in_4_weeks/

 

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Lawrie - I have to agree with this. The conversation serves no useful purpose because you seem unwilling to listen. So far, you have a plan to test your ideas - but you refuse to respond to any sort of constructive criticism. The questions I've raised are standard questions in research methods. If you ever do try to publish, you are likely to face some of the same questions. You haven't submitted your work for peer review and you haven't participated in peer review yourself. Your responses are rude and attack anyone who tries to communicate with you.

I'd encourage you to change your approach - you're likely to go much further if you do.

Andy

 

I have read Lawrie's jive, some of which is useful, for several years. And each time I do, I can't help but think of Kevin Costner's great line in American Flyers, "Sounds like bull shinto to me."

I think we may assume that Lawrie has not submitted his research to a refereed journal.

 

And I have not submitted my extensive research on consuming quantities of beer and chili but believe my conclusions, be they anecdotal, to be valid.

 

For which I give you credit. Because, unlike Lawrie, who turned a simple question into an overblown pontification, you made your statement succintly and in one brief sentence.

Had Lawrie simply answered yes or no in the beginning, I would not have made my coment at all. Because I see no need to use a thousand words when only one would have sufficed.

 

[This man and I go back some way. Last time it ended with a lawyer and a suit I wish now I'd prosecuted. I have not engaged him in any debate here because of the risk of igniting old passions. I thought that caution sensible.]

If your interest is using this form as a tool to defame and libel, as you have done in other fora, let's cut to the chase.

Otherwise, take it offline and I will give you every opportunity to work on your inadequacies, in person.

 

Why, Lawrie, I'm rather surprised. I have no recollection of anything ending "with a lawyer and a suit."

Nonetheless, I have not libeled you at all; I have merely expressed an opinion that you provuided much fodder in response to a question that could have been answered in one word. If you believe that qualifies as libel, I suggest you brush up on your knowledge of defamation law.

In the meantime, I have no desire to enter a cocksmanship contest with you, so I will not respond to any further replies.

As for "taking it offline," I assume you are aware that a post may not be deleted by its writer after fifteen minutes - that's the way this forum is set up. If, however, you wish to contact one of the administrators (with which I do not wish to be bothered on this issue), you may relay to them that I have no objection to my original comments and the posts that follow being deleted.

Have a nice day. And do try to develop a sense of humor, you insignificant little twit. (That's also an opinion. Now be a good boy and read your First Amendment law.)

 

levicoff, levicoff, levicoff

Making you a what?? Significant big twit.

 

Re: levicoff, levicoff, levicoff

Precisely. That's because I have a sense of humor and don't take myself seriously, let alone take Lawrie seriously.

Levicoff's rule #1: If you're gonna laugh your ass off at anyone else, you'd better be able to laugh your ass off when you look in the mirror.

 

Question for Lawrie:

Without getting into an argument or pissing match, I need to ask: Why are you so passionate about this subject?