AH HA!! J.D. vs. Ph.D.? A BLOW for TRUTH!

PRACTICALLY speaking...

It is technically possible to earn an M.D. without a bachelor's degree though I don't know if anyone does it anymore.

I know only ONE J.D. who does not possess a bachelorate; her story is rather interesting; her CalBar law school admitted her then achieved provisional ABA accreditation during her final year.

Certainly the great majority of ABA schools DO require a bachelors on hand before admission. Some state Bar examiners like New Jersey and Kansa, I think? require both a BA and a JD.

Now, a more interesting question is , "As a practical matter, is there any such thing as a J.D. in a postdoc appointment?" I have found none.

 

Re: Re: JD without Bachelor's

The pred-JD educational requirements that ABA-accredited law schools need to enforce are listed here, under "Standard 502: Educational Requirements". The ABA accreditation rules do not strictly require a bachelor's degree (though in practice, most ABA-accredited schools probably do).

 

CalDog,

You're right and I didn't mean to imply otherwise. But most law schools themselves have adopted the requirement that applicants possess a bachelor's degree.

 

As far as the ABA's "position", I think it is quite strong enough, thank you very much. The ABA controls accreditation and large parts of its Standards are devoted to how law faculty must be selected and treated.

No law school (well, except maybe YALE UNIVERSITY ) can AFFORD to get into a pissing match with the ABA accreditation folks. If you want to see what can happen, look at the history of Antioch in Washington D.C.

BTW, apparently Whittier is on probation?

 

Hmm, apparently so, as of this month. Low bar pass rates for first-time takers. The February rates were 24% in 2004 and 33% in 2005; the July rates were 31% in 2003 and 41% in 2004. At least the trend is in the right direction. No July 2005 results yet.

The President of Whittier Law School is outraged and disappointed.

 

If my theory is correct (well, it isn't really MY theory, exactly) Whittier should reflect a lower average LSAT score among its students than is usual for an ABA school.

When Western State first got defrocked (they're back with provisional ABA accreditation) I wondered why Whittier hadn't suffered the same fate.

The ABA has recently tightened up its standards and procedures for deaccrediting schools to remove much of its discretion in the decision to revoke accreditation. This is likely the result of the Western State fiasco. Whittier might be in REAL trouble!

 

It's not considered a very selective school. A 2003 listing at www.ilrg.com indicates that the typical Whittier LSAT range at 146 to 152. It ranked as number 168 out of 178 law schools in this regard.

I find it a bit surprising that the Orange County, California market, which is full of upwardly-mobile suburban professionals, is not better for law schools. Not long ago, there wasn't a single ABA-accredited school in OC. Now there are Chapman and Western State and Whittier, but the latter two seem to be struggling. Granted, there are good law schools next door in LA, but the commute sucks.

 

D.Pharm. without Bachelor's

As discussed earlier, an ABA-accredited JD can be obtained without a bachelor's, and here is another example: the Doctor of Pharmacy degree. You typically need two years of pre-pharmacy college study to enter a DPharm program, but a bachelor's degree is optional. Even the University of California at San Francisco, which is the US News choice for top DPharm program in the US, is flexible in this regard:

 

This has been very enlightening. I had just assumed that a bachelors was required for all first professional doctorates except the D.C. Thank you Nosborne & CalDog.

 

Interesting that Yale didn't list the Ed.D.

Whittier Law School is less than a mile from my office and I had lunch with the former dean of the school two or three times. (A very nice guy who passed away a few months after his retirement.) They have an excellent physical facility built within the past 10 years. The former dean expressed great fustration with the faculty on the issue of pass rates. Many ignore the bar examination and, as such, graduates simply don't have the time to prepare.

The current dean might want to consider the fact that student loan repayments begin shortly after graduation regardless of the students status with the bar examination. So timing does make a difference.

 

David Boyd,

You are being gentle and generous, as you usually are.

The real concern underlying poor Bar passage rates at CalBar and ABA schools is that it raises the suspicion that the school is allowing poorly qualified students to enrol and pay tuition even though they are not adequately prepared or intellectually fitted to learn and practice law.

CalBar SPECIFICALLY describes this practice as "exploitation" and condemns it strongly.

Given the near one-to-one correspondence between a school class' average LSAT and that same class' first time Bar passage rate, it IS difficult to defend against the charge.

I don't think that the LSAT model has been shown to be valid for D/L law study, BTW. I don't think exploitation is an issue there; the purpose and porcess, let alone the cost difference, makes D/L a different world.

On a related subject, I recently expressed the opinion that an American lawyer would probably be better off pursuing a Taft LL.M. in taxation than a foreign D/L LL.M.

How many LL.M. degrees has Taft awarded? Do you have a feel for where these students are using their Taft training?

 

speaking of timing...

Hi David: Good to see your post. How are the preparations for Taft's MEd coming along? Best wishes, J.

 

The LL.M Program has a very small enrollment (around 9 or 10 students) and we have graduated only two over the years. Both were attorneys working the estate and trust field. We probably wouldn’t even offer the program but for the fact we have curriculum and faculty already in place for the M.S.T. Program. I have been told that Concord dropped their LL.M. program around a year ago due to lack of enrollment.

A major negative to many attorneys who would otherwise be interested in our program is our lack of Title IV participation. Many would enroll to simply defer their existing student loans. If DETC becomes a Title IV accreditor and if Taft elects to participate (a big “if” at this point), we would probably develop additional LL.M. concentrations.

It is a very difficult program for anyone without a strong accounting background.

With respect to the Master of Education, it looks as if we are close to filling a couple of key administration positions and expect to begin accepting applications in the 4th quarter. (Enrollment will be capped at a very low level the first six months.) Even without RA, I expect this will be a very popular program with enrollments exceeding the law school within two years. (This paragraph breaks my normal self-imposed rule against touting our programs but I think this is going to be a real good one. I promise no more hype.)

 

Hm. Not only did Concord drop their LL.M. programs, (tax and health law) but D/L LL.M. programs IN GENERAL don't seem to do very well here in the U.S. It's interesting to see that Taft has had much the same experience as Concord, Regents, UConn (I think) and others. I don't know off hand if St. Thomas has yet thrown in the towel but I'll bet they will at some point.

Oh, you know who else gave up? SCUPS used to offer a Tax LL.M. "Gone, gone with the wind!"

Anyway, thanks for the info!

 

Nos,

My post was not as clear as it could have been. I used have used something like "argument," instead of "position". You are certainly correct that very little affects the ABA's position as the professional accreditor of law programs.

My post was far more limited and referred directly to a section of ABA's website where the argument is made for the equalness of the J.D. and Ph.D. degrees based on the requirements and coursework for the two degrees. This was the subject of another thread and I pointed out the flaws in ABA's argument. My point here was that by allowing those without an undergraduate degree to pursue the J.D., the argument of equalness to the Ph.D. is weakened (I do not know of any RA Ph.D. program that accepts students without an earned undergraduate degree. Many, if not most, require an earned masters degree).

Having said that, I have been consistent in my observation that college and university faculty with J.D.s are, in terms of degree recognition, respect and salary, treat just as Ph.D. holders.

I apologize for not making myself clearer. Your points are well taken.

 

I know of people who work in industry, military and non-profit training and development for whom this degree may be a very good fit. Most school districts require RA degrees for recognition, but not all have so specified--some require accredited degrees, but have not specifically limited that to regional accreditation. This may be a very good market, indeed.

 

I've been checking Taft's site every few days looking for information. I'm anxious to see the program.

 

Dr. Tony (thus avoiding the tilde altogether. Clever, hunh?)

I deliberately misconstrued your post in order to vent my usual complaints about the ABA. Any apology should come from ME, not YOU.

The ABA justification is silly at best and intellectually dishonest at worst. Neither description inspires confidence in what is, after all, an organization of LAWYERS!

 

Another first professional doctorate which does not require a Bachelor's for admission is the DEP (Doctor of Physical Therapy) degree.

Several institutions offer a 3+3 program (in one case a 3+2.5 program) where 3 years of undergrad + 3 years of professional training lreads to the DPT degree. A Bachelor's is awarded along the way.

 

Oops. That's DPT, not DEP.