Standards - Australia vs. Germany

(...with 5 years being part-time-studies, and up to 3 years full-time)

 

Thanks Peter for correcting the misinformation from the previous poster. Some people simply base their "expert" opinion on conjecture while sipping a glass of wine in their living room. I still don't understand why some people form strong opinion about some thing even without an iota of relevant information of the subject under discussion.
I just want to add that both real experts and charlatans also post on this board. Sometimes people who are new to DL find it difficult to sift the right info from the wrong info. This is why it is necessary that misinformation should never go unchallenged. Thanks again Peter.

Ike

 

The Bachelors degree is the
basic degree which qualifies a person to be employed as a graduate and
to practice a profession.


I think this statement is just meant in the sense of the new (for Germany) degree "Bachelor" to be the FIRST academic degree in order to get into the working market (up till new, the Master/Diplom was the first academic degree, and will now be the 2nd like in the rest of the world), not more. So this statement is not so totally wrong, although Peter was of course also right with his following statement...

The discussion in Germany at the moment is if a Bachelor´s degree is sufficient for your first job ("berufsqualifizierend" => qualifying for your first job) - many, many people do think it is not (since the Diplom, which was the first degree so far, is about 2 years more education) - I guess that´s the way Lewchuk meant it - so we should not blame him...

Greets,

Trigger

 

For our German friends, please share what the academic requirements are in the 4 or 5 years that it takes to get a German Diplom.

In the U.S., you take courses that are usually broken down in terms of semester units (or equivalent) (i.e., 3, etc.)--and are usually given midterm and final exams along with some sort of research paper in each of these 3 units. There is an emphasis on a broad general education within the U.S. 4 years B.A./B.S. along with the major area.

EsqPhD

 

@ EsqPhD:

you can not say in general,
that varies from study subject to study subject, and even from university to university, depending on the emphasism.

We don´t have a "unit" system so far (also being introduced together with the new degrees), we work with "hours a week".

In my subject (Business), it´s a mixture between final exams (no midterms) and less research papers and similar stuff. We work a lot with extremely hard final exams (U.K.) style where you write several (!) 4-hours-examinations at the end of each semester...

All in all, it´s quite clear that the academic standard of a U.S. Master´s degree is pretty much the same as a German Diploma, also in quantity (though we do have a lot less papers, and more written exams, sometimes additional oral ones).

 

Addition:

what should be remarked also is that in Germany it is TOTALLY USUAL that NO ONE manages to finish his studies in the official time!

Since we do not have a credit/unit system, each one is able to write as many exams as he like per semester, and there are very often no rules which subject to write in which semester - you just need to pass all to get your Pre-Diploma/Diploma at the end...

(so, Business in Cologne for example, takes you ON AVERAGE 14 (!) semesters to get your Master´s diploma, though the German-wide official timetable says 9 (!) [okay, admitted, some other universities only take 12, but the very majority (more than 75 %) of students takes more...)

So comparing the degrees is even more hard seing it that way...

 

I hope the student has a job or wealthy parents if he/she takes 14 semesters of study for the Diplom.

It seems to me that the American system is exerting much influence in many areas of the world's cultures--even in academics. I have no doubt that eventually, as long as the U.S. maintains its world influence, that most of the world's academic systems will either accomodate or change to the American three tier (Bachelor, Master, Doctorate) system, including professional doctorates.

For example, the U.S. first medical degree is a professional doctorate with no dissertation requirements. I would hope that countries like Germany would recognize such professional credentials and not refuse the honor of the "doctoral" degree because it is not in accordance with German standards. Of course, this is just an academic relection. I'm sure U.S. physicians think of themselves as the best and most academically advanced regardless of what others may think. I think it's part of the American ego.

EsqPhD

 

Or the truth.

Rich Douglas

 

Actually, what you´re writing is one of the main reasons why Europe is changing towards the 3-tier-system...

But at least Germany is willing to change towards that system without doing the mistakes America did (with countless less-than-wonderful or at least just "acceptable" schools) [that to be the reason why many U.S. Top schools are thinking about including some of the Humboldt (the founder of the German University System) elements back to their education (no kidding)]. The difference is that a lot of schools in the US are world class, but hundreds are simply "o.k.", whereas for example every German University is seen equivalent since the all have the same (State controlled) system of education, curriculum (more or less) and Accreditation (to be compared to business schools, every single German University would be AACSB, since they all follow the same -highest- rules, and we have no real "bad schools") - but admitted on the other side that your non-academic/-scientific (professional) education is a lot more sophisticated than ours...

So we´re taking over the Anglo-American principles, but still try to avoid the mistakes...


(towards the point of the 14 semesters: the reason WHY so many students take so long is BECAUSE they´re already having jobs - in old and new economy - what makes studying a little longer...).

(besides, I´m sorry to say out frankly that I endoubt that German scientists are doing worse than American ones - since the knowledge base is totally the same - though admitted that Business and Biotech are, e.g. are totally American lead areas, because of different (restrictive) law systems and stuff like that...)

Anyway, I´m glad of getting my German Diploma, and afterwards I´m going to make an American Master´s degree, and then I´ll try a British research doctorate - time will tell).

I wish you guys all the best for the education you´re getting - we should all be so happy that we are enabled to do so - countless people in the world are not...

Greets,

T

 

Hi Triggersoft,

well, having my self a Fachhochschul Diploma in Library and Information Science which I ended with a Staatsexamen (to be specific the full title is: "Diplom Bibliothekarin (FH) fuer den gehobenen Dienst an wissenschadtlichen Bibliotheken in Baden Wuertemberg")- isn´t that a frightening long title(???), what would that be in the anglo-american system(s)? A BA with honors in LIS or an MA in LIS?

But to clarify the Staatsexamen a bit for our foreign friends, at least in my subject you are (were) not writing a thesis, you had to go through about 6 exams in the mentioned 4 to 6 hours length, plus a set of 2 oral examinations). The Fachhochschul degrees (Diplomas (FachHochschule)) that end with Staatsexamen are targeted for Public Administration jobs. The degree also includes a one year practice in a University Library, where you go through all kind of departments and functions (everything from Library Management (scientific libraries) to Inter Library Loan) and you will have another practice of about a month in an industrial/business department. So in total you study about 3 years (including 1 year of practise studies, where you attend lessons as well) So, I think it would be more going into the direction of a vocational degree.
Hope that brings some light into Fachhochschulen und Statsexamen.

CU,

Michaela, who decided after her degree not to go into Public Administration but the Software Industry ;-)