Inbreeding

Re: Re: Re: Ahhh

Bruce - The business of inbreeding is just one factor in looking at a person's credentials. Graduating from a large and well know school like SUNY Albany certainly mitigates the concern. Indeed, good schools bring diversity (in terms of faculty and students) to the campus. Any inbreeding may be out weighed by the quality of the school. Your professor with all his degrees from SUNY Albany probably doesn't have any problems with his resume. The other fellow has a PhD from Michigan State - a top instutiton - probably doesn't have much of a problem either.

DL schools are somewhat problematic when it comes to inbreeding. Most of the DL institutions we talk about here are focused on just a few professional fields and as a result arent' terribly diverse to begin with. Because they lack on-campus interaction, students don't get exposed to much beyond their discipline. There aren't lectures on campus or concerts or other avenues to engage students as one has with brick and mortar institutions. For example, while an MBA student at Vanderbilt, I remember attending lectures at the divinity school, getting to know law and medical students and listening to concerts. In the DL world would I see this sort of diversity? There are other concerns with DL schools and inbreeding. Some DL schools have alumni make up as much as 30-40% of their faculty. Given the generally low academic standards of DL programs (virtually all the DL schools I've looked at are effectively open admission), this tends to reinforce a weak academic image.

While inbreeding may be tolerated among top tier institutions, what about the DL case? Imagine a person applies for an academic position with all their degrees (bachelor's, master's and doctorate) from UoP or Capella or NSU? Or for that matter, from a lower tier brick and mortar school? That's a resume I wouldn't want to have.

To summarize, I'm encouraging people to pursue diversity in their education - from the standpoint of attending different schools and pursuing some variety in their studies. Second, I encourage folks to pursue challenging degree programs. Don't take the easy road (always). Step up to the plate and see what you can do. It's your resume - how do you want it to look?

Regards - Andy

 

Based on this information alone, I would say that A's credentials look more impressive than B's -- partly because of the diversity but mostly because they imply that A was able to pull him/herself up by his/her bootstraps and progress from small suburban/rural colleges to a large well-known doctoral university.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Ahhh

I guess that's where I have a problem. Inbreeding is okay as long as it's a traditional, well-known school, but throw a DL school into the scenario and it's suddenly bad. Don't get me wrong, I have no illusions of someone with a B.S., M.B.A. and D.B.A. from Nova receiving the same consideration as someone with the same mix from Harvard. But, I think we should judge a vitae based on the schools themselves, not the fact that someone earned all their degrees from one school. If things are to change, it has to start with us (DL advocates).

BTW...good topic, it's definitely something to think about when considering graduate school.


Bruce

 

Very Interesting Subject

I have enjoyed reading the posts on this subject. It's certainly a practical matter for those of us who choose the distance learning route for advanced education and have interest in teaching.

I believe it was Mr. French who pointed out that this is an issue almost unique to American institutions. I live in the US, but claim a small country with only one major university as my birthplace. While some people are fortunate enough to secure government scholarships to study overseas, the vast majority study at the national university and several later return to lecture at the same university. Some of my friends and colleagues there have argued that the same old ideas are being presented. But it is acceptable in that context to have their graduates teach at the same university.

At the same time, I believe Andy has some very interesting points. Diversity is valuable in academia. The Seventh-day Adventist Theological Seminary (Andrews University) where I attended some years ago, tend to hire individuals with diverse backgrounds. Only a very small percentage of their professors earned their doctorates at said seminary. I believe the ATS may even frown on the practice of having a large percentage of faculty earning their terminal degrees from the same institution.

As I have been considering UNISA, I took Andy's comments into consideration. While we may not like the prejudices that exist against DL institutions, I think grads of such institutions are going to always face raised eyebrows. When the clear majority of the professors earned their masters and doctorates from the same DL program, I may have more prejudice to deal with.

I guess, I am somewhat on both sides of the fence on this one.

 

Re: Re: Ahhh

Can't be that bad if more than half the applied physics faculty at Cal Tech is guilty of it. Your reply to that counter-example was to change the subject and bring up "tiers". Presumably inbreeding is OK at "top" schools, but an evil at "inferior" (read DL) schools.

I don't think that anyone can coast on their degrees, can they? At some point everyone has to accomplish something more. Having the coolest MBA on earth doesn't mean very much if you fail on the job. Having a top tier Ph.D. doesn't mean much if you never publish anything.

What's more, in most academic specialties there are only a relatively small number of doctoral programs. People know most of them, and understand their strengths and weaknesses. Go back and look at the Cal Tech applied physics department. Dr. Axel Scherer. All of his degrees earned at relatively obscure New Mexico Intitute of Mining and Technology. Of course, NMIM&T isn't obscure at all if your field is explosives. It has probably the top program in the United States if you want to blow something up with chemicals. They run a desert test range where they train government people from law enforcement, emergency-response and the spook agencies. My point being that pretty much *all* doctoral rograms are good at *something*. And even prestige schools let down in some specialties, and frankly aren't very good.

I think that the point here is that if you expect to be hired as a high-powered researcher, you need to have research experience in a program with a known strength in the area of your research. You will need publications and recommendations from names that informed people know.

Of course, not everyone on earth, particularly those interested in DL, intends to compete for positions as high-powered researchers.

Oh Andy! If I could reach you through the screen, I'd hug you and kiss your butt!

Nevertheless, a person who earns an advanced degree in mid-career probably already has a long employment history in his or her field and has accomplishments that a new graduate with no work experience doesn't have. Nova's Ed.D.'s seem to work very well for in-service school administrators who are being groomed for top jobs in their districts.

The great majority of us pursuing distance education aren't intending to become university professors at all. So much of your argument is irrelevant to us. We either want continuing education relevant to our jobs, or we want to pursue academic interests avocationally without having to quit our jobs and move in order to do so.

Pretty dismissive of DL, aren't you?

What you forget is that dropping everything and enrolling in a top-tier on-campus program isn't an option that's open to very many of us.

But my purpose for wanting to pursue higher education at the age of 53 isn't to land a full-time tenure-track teaching job at your school. So guys like you will never be reviewing my resume, thank God!

My education is for my benefit, not for yours.

 

Re: Re: Re: Ahhh

I assumed that that is why we all got our degrees. But come to think of it, some people might have a strategy from a young age.

• I got an Associates because I was directed to. It later helped me to get hired on into law enforcement (because it was required for entry-level employment).
  
• I got a Bachelors because I felt inadequate or naked without it (everyone else in my family has degrees... lots and lots of degrees).
  
• I'm pursuing a Masters because I believe it will open a future door which otherwise would be difficult to open without that academic credential. I'm also getting it for personal enrichment because it is so rewarding.
  
• If I were ever nutty enough to attempt to get a doctorate, it would be strictly for me, for personal enrichment, because I don't think it would ever help me in any other way.

 

Re: Re: Re: Ahhh

Bill - Here is a reply:

Inbreeding is more acceptable from top schools than it is from lower tier schools - I agree. By citing Cal Tech and one department, you have an example. Take a look at the Biology department at the same school and you'll have another example. They have 40 faculty members. Four (10%) have degrees from CalTech. The rest are from a wide range of institutions.

Excellent point. After you've been out of school a few years what you've done is far more important than were you 've been. In the academic hiring where you went to school is one factor, however, that isn't forgotten. I'm 5 years out of a DBA program from NSU. Even if I had published lots of papers in top journals (which isn't likely given my educational background), many AACSB schools won't hire me due to where I went to school.

I agree totally about NSU's EdD - it is a very good program for many students. But don't try to get a job at a top university with such a degree. It won't work!

We have a variety of audiences here at degreeinfo.com. Yes, many don't intend to teach. But how many posts have you seen in degreeinfo.com asking if such and such a degree will prepare one for a teaching career? College teaching is at least a secondary motive for many.

Even if you don't want to teach, there are benefits from avoiding inbreeding. If I can convince someone who was going to do BS/MBA at a single DL school to consider going to an AACSB accredited MBA program (such as Indiana's DL MBA program), then my point has been made. Diversity and challenge are important.

I teach in DL and have earned a degree in DL. I appreciate DL for its ability to expand access. I don't appreciate the often low academic standards in DL programs.

Bill - I've lived this point! When I went to start doctoral studies I was married with kids and a mortgage. The only PhD programs in the state of Michigan in Business were full-time (UoM and MSU). I searched and searched before going to NSU. I realize the problem that lots of folks face in this regards. But what's the answer? Earn the easiest DL degrees you can find just so some one calls you "Dr"? Today there are some solid DL options that are rigorous. I'd encourage folks to look at these.

Fine - then discussions of inbreeding and accreditation are of no importance to you. I'm sure there are lots of other threads that are more useful for you to read.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Ahhh

As the token lazy guy, it sounds like an excellent idea to me!

 

Re: Re: Inbreeding

I decided to check out Harvard's Graduate School of Education to see whether they discourage such inbreeding. Although I did not look at all 200+ faculty websites, my random sample clicking revealed that about 50% had their highest degree from Harvard. Anyone who wishes to do all 200 clicks can check out the website at:

http://hugse9.harvard.edu/gsedata/resource_pkg.alphabetic_list

No comment...just observation.

Tony
(who has bachelors and masters from one school and is finishing a doctorate at a different one--I guess that I buy into the inbreeding thing after all).

 

Ok, Andy. I agree with you. Taking an education from differents schools has great benefits.

However, doesn't in breeding has some benefits? Take for example the student that takes a master degree from a certain college or university. During the process his professors learns what her/his strenghts and weaknesses are.
Does this knowledge and relationship help the faculty to assist the student better?
What about the design of a program - schoool A has masters and doctoral program in some field (business, education, etc.).
There is natural progression from the master to the doctoral degree. In otherwards the programs Maters and doctoral degree compliment each other. Under these circumstances, isn't it reason to say that having two degrees from the same school has some kind of benefit?
Instead moving to a new school where you may have retake somethings taken at the masters level. Taking into consideration that there is a lot of inbreeding in Americain education anyway. This is easily seen by the comparision of syllabus' from different universities. The same expert reference materials are used. I am not a expert on the matter - but I have attended several schools and the difference was not mainly the schools, but, rather the skills and different styles of the professors.
While not an expert on the matter. However, I think that student who have the opportunity should get a least one of their degree from a residential school.

Thats my 2 cents!! - just thinking out load - Next summer I'll finish my MBA at Touro and will have to make this very decision. But what is wise?

 

I think you are right on target here.

Yes - Many graduate programs have MS and PhD's that are integrated - especially in the sciences, for example. The MS is offered in the middle of one's study. In other cases it is given as a consolation prize to a person who is being asked to leave a doctoral program.

I'm not sure how Touro is structured. When it comes to PhD admission, do they count credit hours from their MBA program differently from credits earned in any other MBA program?

When I started Nova's DBA program we were required to have a master's degree in hand with certain coursework (marketing, quant methods, etc.). However, there was no special treatment for folks with a NSU MBA. I waived all the pre-reqs with my Vanderbilt MBA (and I suspect most MBA's would too), just as well as I would have with a NSU MBA.

For you the question is - do you continue on with Touro or change horses. My bias would say "go elsewhere", but this is a choice you have to make. If the choice is between Touro and another DL institution (such as NSU, Argosy, Capella, etc.), it may not make a lot of difference. If there is a part-time on-campus program nearby, however (such as Cleveland State or UMUC for example), I'd definitely look carefully there. Going to an AACSB accredited, non-DL program can be plus when it comes to looking for a teaching job. Of course if you are pursuing a doctorate in business for your own growth or you plan to stay in industry, this may not matter much.

Regards - Andy

 

Hi Andy - I recognize that your argument has merit although I believe that I have another exception to your rule. There continue to be many people, especially in the Liberal Arts fields, who move directly from Bachelor degree programs to Doctoral degree programs. If in the course on ones Bachelors degree you discover a Professor whose area of specialization is of particular interest to you, having that Professor as a Doctoral degree advisor might outweigh any concerns about inbreeding. My understanding is that finding an advisor that you like/respect, who likes/respects you, who has expertise in your area of interest, well, this might be an opportunity that you might not want to pass up. I might add, that this might be the case regardless of which tier the school occupies.
Good topic,
Jack

 

Cost is also a factor

An ex girlfriends father taught at USC and was able to attend free because of it I know of many fine institiutions that offer inhouse tuition as an employee benifit and even allow the children of the Janatorial staff to get an education that they wouldnt otherwise afford . Should someone go $100k in debt just to show a degree from a school other then the one Daddy works for?

 

Re: Cost is also a factor

No, but as stated here earlier, degrees from some institutions wouldn't matter. The point is that people should give this some thought. I check with colleges and universitites often, and the general sentiment is that there is validity to Andy's argument. When Academians see 3 degrees from the smae school, there is an assumption not about the quality of the school, but about the perspective of the candidate. Of course inbreeding won't kill a career, but it seems that individuals are better served to get a varied education.

 

Re: Cost is also a factor

As Darren has already said (and the title of the note suggests), inbreeding is just one factor to consider in selecting schools. There can be lots of extenuating factors - like a key faculty member in a a specialized area of study or as this poster suggests - the student's parent is an employee and the student has a tuition waiver.

Note with this post that the school in question is USC - a very well regarded school. For better or for worse, inbreeding is less an issue with higher quality institutions. Such schools bring diversity to you by hiring varied faculty and recruiting diverse student bodies.

My theme remains - all other things being equal, students are better off selecting a variety of schools for different degrees and making sure that at least one of their degrees is an academic stretch for them. Taking the easest DL degrees may give you pieces of paper - but no rigor.

Regards - Andy

 

There is a point to be made about the "inbreeding" found in universities and as pointed out at the beginning of this thread, at DL institutions. However, it should be noted that most universities, whether DL or not have a good number of people teaching who are graduates of the same institution.

My previous university (Université Laval) had many lecturers and researchers who were graduates. This is not neceessarily a bad thing. One i knew had done all his degrees from there and was well know in Canada as the expert in his field. His entire formation hinged on his studying under certain researchers at the same university.

The fact that Unisa has many in the same situation should not detract from the research the student wants to undertake. Since Unisa, like the vast majority of universities in RSA are state institutions, the idea that it is for profit and similar arguments for retaining graduates to teach don't fly. Universities in most Commonwealth countries, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, UK are government sponsored. Tuition fees are low and subsidized to make them accessable to all. Private universities are often rare. Therefore there must be another reason for students being retained to further their studies and research at the same institution.

As for Unisa's DEd programme, that was slurred at the beginning of this thread, if you were to check you would see that the profs from the faculty have a variety of degrees from other universities. The other universities in RSA have often retained a majority from their own ranks at UCT, NU etc for themselves as do the universities elsewhere.

I think we have to be care when judging the universities this way. The difference should perhaps be whether or not the university is for profit or a state university, each having a different motive for attracting and/or retaining students.