Extending an Idea: Diplomas

THings like this already exist. In my own field, the certified medical practice executive (CMPE) and certified healthcare executive (CHE) credentials are very well regarded. Of course, neither are available for "life experience". Nope, sorry friends, these are also credentials that you have to earn. No cutting a check to a shady diploma mill in return for a deceptive piece of paper.

Just visit the websites www.ache.org and www.mgma.org/acmpe for details.

By way of discosure, I'm a member of both the ACHE and ACMPE and certified by one of them.

I think a certified manager (CM) credential also already exists.

So, you guys keep trying to figure a way around doing actual work. It's amusing to see.

 

Its unfair to say people are looking for shortcuts by reading this thread or any other. many experts much more qualified than you have endorsed what is considered experiential learning if thats what is your concern.

You keep taking cheap shots at people without any real scientific base.

The man is just putting forward an idea, just leave it at that and stop jumping to conclusions.

 

Not at all...

I have 90 credits from the RA University of Wisconsin system and am enrolled at Excelsior doing work towards a degree. In my case a Liberal Arts Degree with a Concentration in Business Studies. I had to leave school to work to help the family with bills plus tend my ill mother and am getting around to my degree- nothing wrong with that. Or to be ashamed of. I'm not lazy.

In this case I simply am proposing if a "diploma mill" even the worst examples instead offered a diploma under a non-college name designation as in not a college or university but rather something like Institute or School it would be much harder for them to be declared= unacceptable. After all I looked at all the unaccredited school lists from three states and all seem to target only degree granters. If these places ony offered a DIPLOMA when started or Certificates and Diplomas it might be much easier for them to operate. What are states going to do go after every diploma granter in the world be it a nail technology school or a graduate diploma provider alike? I point out if a diploma mill only offered diplomas they would legally be in a stronger position especially if a foreign operator.

 

I think we understand what you trying to communicate.

And As I see it even Diploma and Certificate form unaccredited school lets say in CA is usually from school that is vocational or
Vendor training center.

Consumer protection in the state of CA extends its BPVE approvals to such schools.

I think a diploma or certificate from BPVE approved entity will have a better rate of acceptance and maybe some more validity.

 

These aren't cheap shots, it's just me pointing out holes in the scheme to "get around" the diploma mill laws of several states.

I don't need a scientific basis to point out that unearned, bought certficates are just as meaningless as unearned, bought degrees.

You are not a victim here, morlyel. You are just another advocate of un-wonderful programs who can't stand to read the truth.

 

You are still taking cheap shots. Anyway, there is no place you can say that have supported any sub-standard or mill programs. Its just that you insist to call all unaccredited schools degree mills without any real examination of faculty and educational quality.

Do you think your RA MBA has the same respect as one from Harvard? fool yourself.

There are good nontraditional ways to earn credit thats practiced in other countries and doing well too. First you should read and get the facts before you make your conclusion.

 

What facts? Unaccredited schools don't open themselves up to outside scrutiny, that's why they're unaccredited. You come here and blow-hard about examining the educaitonal processes of schools that don't allow such examination. You must be looking in a crystal ball for answers, or just believing the marketing material from the mills.

My MBA will not compare to the AACSB programs out there, but it doesn't have to. And it will never get me fired for being a fraud. THe same cannot be said of mills like Almeda, Kenedey Western and Rushmore.

 

I don't want to get back into this rat hole with you. But as I have said before Almeda is not at the same level as KWU and Rushmore. Thats just common sense. I am not defending any of them, just making a logical point.

 

What logical point? All there is to your post is unsubstatiated personal opinion.

 

Heriot-Watt MBA is really respected in Europe and the university chose deliberately to NOT pursue accrediton. There are a few ell thought reasons to it and, IN THEIR CASE, I think it is a wise idea.


Reading this thread and the other that I started I think there is a pretty solid middle-point in here, at least for theoretical debate: Any school can offer diplomas, certificates of completion or whatever. What they should not do is try to disguise a diploma as a degree, in any way. This means not only fradudulent schemes, but even promoting well intentioned courses that may generate some confusion. In Brazil, many accredited universities are making a quick buck by sellingh 2 and 3 years courses that ARE NOT Bachelors, but many students think they are (they're 17 year old kids, and they're in college, after all).


All communications must be really clear.

To sum it up:

From the provider's point of view:

Yes. Your school can offer courses/seminars/wahetever on any number of subjects and issue certificates, diplomas or other "feel good" material to people that attend it.
Your school must also be careful to avoid employing marketing ploys that deceive people (students or employees) into thinking they're enrolling in something else.


From the student's point of view:

Yes. You may attend any courses without accreditation if all they promise is just a diploma or certificate. However, there are two catches here:
1 - You must find a real course and, without accreditation, it may be harder to differentiate a good learning experience from a mill, at least before you write thoise checks.
2 - The hardest part is that, although you may use your certificate on your resume or any number of intervciuews and conversations, you have the burden of proof to convince others that the course was not a waste of your time and resources. Probably not a big deal with any number of non accredited schools, but you may be concerned if you had your course at a place like St Regis, for instance.

 

This is not exactly true. Since Heriot Watt is a Royal Chartered university, it is already the equivalent of US regional accreditation.

Nice red herring, though.

 

The burden is 100% on you. You claim they are all diploma mills. From standard definition prove that?

 

To the contrary, they (and you) claim that they are not diploma mills. They (and you) have the burden of proving that assertion while at the same time avoiding the very reasonable safeguard of accreditation.

I say that any school that lacks neutral, third party validation (by calbar, accreditors, ACE) is a mill. It is up to the mills to prove me wrong.

 

To summarize, no one is saying accreditation is wrong and should not be attained. My position is that there is a right to choose not to be accredited based on the laws of the US. Does that limit the use of the paper? definitely.

Therefore, my fundamental issue with your position is to call a school a fraud because they are not accredited.

 

Then we are at an impasse, since I can think of no legitimate reason for a school that confers academic degrees to avoid persuing accreditation or other third party validation of thier programs (such as calbar, ACE, or a program that leads to a professional licensure, ect.) .

 

The logic is simple:

1. Many unaccredited schools are frauds.

2. Some unaccredited schools may not be frauds.

3. Unaccredited schools generally do not allow independent outside verification of their educational processes.

4. Because of point (3), it is typically difficult or impossible to definitively establish whether a specific unaccredited school is legitimate or fraudulent.

5. Supporters of legitimate unaccredited schools have failed to define practical, defensible criteria that would be used to identify such schools, given point (3).

6. Since there is no good way to distinguish legitimate unaccredited schools from the frauds, the only practical course of action is to consider all unaccredited schools as potential frauds.

QED

 

A person with diploma in Social Work and Psychology from
Stratford Career Institute in Champlain NY was hired as an Social Worker Assistant with 15$ an hour rate.

The facility is in Florida and its a semi state (under health department) private business.

As I understand other candidates had accredited BSW degree.
Yet a person with Diploma (Unaccredited) in Social Work got the job based on her Diploma and 2 year experience in similar center in another state. The person is not related nor a friend of the owner.
She responded to a job ad in the local paper. I don't know what was the level of experience of the other candidates.
As I'm told they interviewed 14 people before hiring her.

So there is a utility there and competition as well.

Learner

 

Legal?

The argument that since unaccredited schools are legal then they must have some valid usefullness is bogus, IMHO. It is analogous to saying that it is okay to take some new drug to get high because they haven't passed a law against it yet. Or to say that in many (most?) places it is legal to commit suicide therefore let's discuss extending the idea of suicide to self mutilation.

 

But sadly, not all SCI stories have a happy ending:

I don't necessarily object to nonstandard or unaccredited credentials, if they are clearly identified as such. Unfortunately, unaccredited schools (apparently including SCI) rarely identify their credentials as nonstandard, and rarely disclose their limitations to potential customers. This is unethical.