so many members, so little contributions?

No, its not a direct comparison...but the "opportunity cost" of being an NCO for 10-12 years and then moving over to an officer track does not make sense on several levles, financial, professional, etc.

 

Jim,

I am one of those "Mustang" officers that went from enlisted to officer at about the eleven year mark of my Naval career. Now, lets take a look at these officers and what they can or cannot do in the Navy and Marine Corps especially.

I enlisted in the Navy in June 1969 and advanced to Chief Personnelman (PNC, E-7) on 16 September 1978, a little over nine years. In April 1980, I was selected for a commission under the Limited Duty Officer (LDO) Program as an Ensign (ENS; 01E). I then served fifteen more years and completed Naval Service as a Lieutenant Commander (LCDR, 0-4) with a little over 26 years of active duty on 1 July 1995. At the time I was selected for a commission, I had a high school diploma. Furthermore, at the time I was selected for LCDR, I still only had a high school diploma.

Why did I do it. First, I wanted to be a much broader field of military human resources with authority and responsibity that would allow me to make a bigger difference to organizational goals then what I did as enlisted. My career path as a commissioned officer allowed me to serve as a Division Officer, Department Head, two tours as an Officer in Charge of a Personnel Support Detachment in Europe, and as an Executive Officer of a Personnel Support Activity in Europe. Furthermore, my selection as an LDO offered me the opportunity to lead personnel in the same career field from which I came up in which was military human resources. Furthermore, I was able to obtain a commission without a four year college degree. The bottom line, my commissioned officer tours were much more challenging and rewarding then what I did as enlisted.

Now, lets look at the promotion opportunity past paygrade E-7 for enlisted, and then for officer up to and including 0-6. In the military, E-8 promotion opportunity can be as low as 2% each cycle since only 2% of the enlisted force of Navy can be E-8. E-9 is even worse with 1% of the total enlisted force can be E-9. Often, the promotion percentage is exactly 1%. This means that a significant number of enlisted personnel retire as E-7s. Nothing wrong with this. However, the retirement pay for an E-7 over twenty is $3.565.80. Now, the promotion opportunity for officers to include the LDOs are as follows: Promtion to 0-2 and 0-3 is almost automatic since there are no selection boards. And, promotion to 0-4 is about 80% which is much better than almost any enlisted promotion opportunity even at the lower grade levels. Heck, even 0-5 is about 60% at the moment.

But, lets look at the money. Lets say that that enlisted person makes E-9. The monthly pay of an E-9 over 26 is $5592.90. An 0-4 over 26 makes $6,117.60 which is over $500 dollars per month. Thats just basic pay. Basic Allowance for Housing without dependents for an E-9 is $704.40. However, its $950.70 for an 0-4. Thats another $200.00. Still think that its not worth it financially?

The bottom line is that the Warrant Officer and Limited Duty Officers provides outstanding upward mobility opportunities for senior enlisted personnel in the Navy and Marine Corps who want to serve as a commissioned officer. Furthermore, it allows them to lead enlisted personnel in the same field that they served as enlisted and can be achieved without the necessity of a four year college degree. Please tell me why you think it does not make sense that enlisted personnel do this?

Fred

 

Also, where has

Gus Sainz gone?

Have not seen his posts for a long time.

 

Steve;

Speaking for myself, it's because the #@@!!#@ Air Force eliminated Warrants years ago (more Commissioned officer authorizations that way, you see), and never had anything equivalent to the LDO program. We can try for a regular commission, but can’t take advantage of the opportunities detailed in Mustangs post.

Not that I’m harboring any RESENTMENT over this or anything……..

(Don’t worry, the meds will kick in a little bit)

Dave

 

Dave,

Nothing wrong with being enlisted in the military. All the Mustang Officers were proud that they came up from the enlisted ranks. I know that I was. Furthermore, I treated my enlisted that served under me the same way that I wanted to be treated. That was with respect and dignity. The military is a tough job. It does not have to be made tougher by some boss that does not get it.

My first point of my rather long post was to illustrate that the Navy and Marine Corps thinks highly of the "skill set" that the these "Mustang" officers bring to the table with their years of experience, education, and expertise. They are the bridge between the senior officer leadership and the junior enlisted, and "blur the lines" between the officer and enlisted communities. By the way, in the Navy, the Mustang community represents about ten percent of the total officer community. Additionally, they have just initiated a "Flying Warrant Officer" community that will allow enlisted personnel to be selected as Warrants who serve the remainder of their careers as pilots in flight billets at sea and ashore.

My second point was to show that the Mustangs in the Navy and Marine Corps serve in progressively challenging positions which utilitze their technical expertise and acquired leadership to support the mission and organizational goals. Selecting senior enlisted to become commissioned officers is a win-win for the military and the individual military member. I have no idea why the Air Force does have a similiar program. It might be because they have never had much of a retention problem. The Army does have a Warrant Officer Program but nothing like the Limited Duty Officer Program of the Navy.

Anyway, thanks for your service to our country and best of luck.

Fred

 

I appreciate it, Fred. Trust me, I'm as proud of my service as anyone; at this point, I wouldn’t trade my senior enlisted status for anything. Early in my career though, I had the opportunity to work closely with several Army and Navy warrants in a "joint service" assignment, and always wondered why the AF didn't afford the same opportunity.

That's when I discovered that they (the AF) purposely killed the warrant program to beef up the number of authorized pilots, and had no intentions of reinstating it. From what I saw, the other service’s warrants served in the same capacity (more or less) that you did, and were allowed to become technical experts and leaders in the same specialty they held when enlisted. I would have loved the opportunity earlier in my career to serve in that capacity.

Just an observation. Thanks for the response and the encouragement, though. Take care!

Dave

 

Fred,

If you can "break in" to the 0-4 - it makes financial and professional sense. Bearing in mind that different periods vary for the selection rate (the selection rate for 0-3 is often near 90%) and drops sharply for 0-4 and still more for 0-5).

A devil's way to look at it - real world - amoung non-mustang retirees, being known as a 20 year 0-3 retiree is not a compliment. In other words, the person could not compete successfuly at the upper levels as an NCO or warrant, nor as an officer.

This is not inteneded as a slam.

 

Jim,

The selection rate for 0-4 is 80% or higher depending on the career field. Its about 60-70% for 0-5 and about 50% for 0-6. As I pointed out in my previous posts, this is much higher than the selection rates for the top two senior enlisted grades. As you can see, it is not all that hard to make 0-4 and 0-5 no matter what career field you are in. However, it is much harder to make E-8 or E-9 just because of the small numbers that each service can have in those paygrades (2% of total enlisted force for E-8 and 1% of the total force for E-9).

The majority of "Mustang" officers retire as 0-4 or higher, at least in the Navy and Marine Corps.

Fred

 

Jim,

It is almost impossible to be allowed to stay in past 11 years as an Officer if you have no prior enlisted service because of the up or out rule which states that if you fail selection twice to a higher paygrade then you will be involuntarily separated. The flow point to 0-4 is between 9-11 years with a historical average of about ten years. That means that an officer with no prior enlisted service will go into zone for consideration for selection to 0-4 at about the 9 year mark. If not selected, then they would go a second time. That would put them at the ten year mark. Then, if they failed to select again, they would be forced to separate at the 11th year of service. However, the selection rates are at least 80% in all career fields with some at 90% at the 0-4 levels. That means only 20% at the most will be asked to go home. It is highly unlikely that you will see any officers make it to 20 that have failed to select twice to 0-4 who do not have significant amount of enlisted service (at least six or more years). I think that if they fail to select twice when they have at least 18 then they will be continued. So, there might be a few that fall into this category.

Now, lets look at the "Mustangs." In the Navy, most of the enlisted personnel selected for the Limited Duty Officer Program have about 13 years of enlisted service. That officer would not go into zone for LCDR (0-4) until about the 22 year of service. As I stated before, they are almost assured of 0-3 because all they have to do is keep breathing to make it since there are no more selection boards for 0-3. And, the selection rate for 0-4 is about 80%. When I was on active duty, it was about 70-75% to 0-4. The historical selection rates of 70% to 0-4, 60% to 0-5 and 50% to 0-6 is much better than the selection rates for the top two enlisted grades. Finally, the Warrant Selection Rates are about 90% to W-3, 80% to W-4 and it drops to about 40-50% to W-5.
This is off the chart compared to the top two enisted selection rates.

Fred

 

Fred,

Nothing personal. A career track that is chosen because "all you have to do is keep breathing" is not someone I would either hire or want to depend on when the going gets tough.

I like to be around people (personally and professionally) who can perform above a "bare minimum". I get enough of the "bare minimum" dealing with bureaucrats and minimum wage earning telephone salespeople.

Each to their own - that's what diversity is all about

 

Jim,

I don't take it personally. I just think that you don't understand or don't care to understand. Let me give you some more detail.

You must think it is easy to get a commission as a
Warrant Officer or Limited Duty Officer in the Navy. The selection rates for both programs historically is about 10% of all the outstanding enlisted applicants that apply. The personnel that apply for the Limited Duty Officer Program have to have the following qualifications to even apply:

- Be an E-6 to E-8 between eight and 16 years of active duty. E-6 must not have more than 15 years of active duty.
- If an E-6, they must have passed the Chief Petty Officer (CPO) examination with a score that makes them selection board eligible. About 50% of the enlisted that take the CPO examination to not make the cut.
- Have a clear record within the past three years of applying (No NJPS, Court Martials, major traffic violations, etc.)
- Obtain an outstanding record from their Commanding Officer after a local interview board of three officers including at least one LDO at the LTJG or above on the board.
- Be a US Citizen (Not a difficult qual)
- Have a High School Diploma or GED (Not a difficult qual)
- Be eligible for a secret clearance. (Not a difficult qual)

The above are the minimum qualifications. Now for the hard part. With a selection rate of 10% or less for some designators (career fields), the competition is keen. In addition to the minimum qualifications listed above, the applicant's that get selected have:

- Progressive careers with outstanding enlisted performance evaluations over a period of years which show breakouts both in the numbers and narrative write ups. Additionally, the narrative write ups have to show significant contributions to mission goals.
- Warfare qualified such as Surface, Air or Submarine.
- Duty as a recruiting, company commander (boot pusher), or training instructor
- Outstanding scores on the Phyiscal Fitness Tests.
- Continued self improvement as shown by the completion of a degree
- Completion of numerous Naval Correspondence Courses.
- Meaningful collateral duties that make a difference to organizational goals.
- A good pattern of sea, overseas and shore duty in a variety of difficult assignments.

It is extremely difficult to get a commission under the Limited Duty Officer or Warrant Officer Programs. The enlisted personnel selected are the best that the Navy has to offer. I am sure it is the same in the Marine Corps. These personnel put the Navy and Marine Corps first and everything else second. They are overachievers and want to do an outstanding job.

The selection rates are a reflection of the military's need for officers. They have invested a lot of time and money in training them. I think that is why they don't have lower selection rates. But, all the services have similar selection rates for promotion in the officer communities. Nothing new here. The selection rates for promotion of officers is no an indicator of quality. I think that the fitness reports might be a better indicator.

Fred



Fred

 

Fred, nothing I said was directed at anything but your comment re: "all you have to do is keep breathing". to move thru the system.

This characterizes the Army and Air Force programs quite nicely. I have great repect for WO and OCS programs - for the people who don't use them to "slide along" until they can retire. Being in the "top 90%" and then moving to another "top 90%" program simply does not impress me - but then, it doesn't have to.

Puts me in mind of Patton's comment re" telling your son one day that you "shoveled s*** in Louisiana during WWII".

I'll be the first to say I know little re: "limited duty" officer program of the navy.

Each to their own - that's what diversity is all about

__________________
Jim Morgan

 

Jim,

Lets back up a second. You started this off by stating that it ws not very impressive for a person to retire as as 0-3 in the military. Further, you indicated that it meant that you were not doing your job as an officer. You then indicated that you did not see the value of either professionally or financially why a senior enlisted would obtain a commission.

I presented detailed information based on fact about the Navy and Marine Corps Limited Duty Officer (LDO) Program and Warrant Officer (WO) Program. My illustration of the selection rates was to show that once selected for this program that future promotions were better than for the top two enlisted grades. You then pointed out that you would not want to be part of a group where 90% were selected for promotion.

I then illustrated how difficult it was to obtain a commission under the Navy and Marine Corps LDO and WO program (about 10% of the outstanding Saliors and Marines that apply get selected). My point of this was not to get into detail about the selection rates but to illustrate to you that getting selected to a commission would allow you to make a bigger difference to organiational goals then as enlisted and the selection rates would be generally better. Finally, I illustrated to you that the majority of LDOs retire at the paygrade of 0-4 or above, and that the pay on active duty and in retirmement for these officers is much higher than for paygrade E-9 even if they achieve that grade which is difficult.

You deflected the discussion away from the facts that I presented. Finally, you indicated that you know little about the Navy's Limited Duty Officer or Warrant Officer Program. My points that I have attempted to present to you in my posts is to show you that these programs present an outstanding opportunity for upward mobility and are highly sought after despite the keen competition.

 

Let's back this up even further. You are misquoting me considerably - there is a world of difference between "it was not very impressive" and my stating that most retired 0-4/0-5's and above do not regard retired 0-3's with great respect. I'll go further, as a defense contractor, I and many others have noticed an "0-6" club - retired 0-6's are very sensitive about being a retired "0-6" - you don't see me losing any sleep over the issue.

How about this - you are heavily emotionally invested in this issue - and no further "disccusion" is going to be productive. Given that, have a great day.

 

Jim,

That Dog Won't Hunt.

When someone rebutts your statements, you always state "you are too emotionally involved." I content that you are the one that is too emotionally involved. How about this. When you make statements about something, do some research before you post about it. Otherwise, you will be challenged.

My posts were to illustrate that the career paths of Mustang Officers at least in the Navy and Marine Corps were extremely rewarding both professionally and financialy. And, most LDOs retire at the paygrade of 0-4 which is more retirment money than an E-9.

Fred

 

Mustang,

I really appreciated your input. Sounds like my dad had to be pretty good to make it to CWO3.

Unfortunately, less than 6 months after he retired my father killed himself. I never really got to know him too well as I was only 9 at the time.

My mom always blamed the navy for him doing that. You never know though, I guess.

Anyway, thanks for your informative posts. I learned a few things.

B

 

dvc,

I am sorry to hear that. Yes, he had to be very good at his job to get selected for Chief Warrant Officer (CWOs). The Chief Warrant Officers in the Navy are well respected by all communities. Most Commanding Officers would love to have their entire wardroom composed of Limited Duty Officers (LDOs) and CWOs because of the technical background, managerial ability and just plain old common sense.

Fred

 

Hi dcv,

I am sure your father would be very proud of you and your accomplishments. I am glad to have you and your contributions in this forum.


Abner