Graduate Degree in Management vs. MBA

You may already be aware of the certificates listed on the page linked below but I figured I'd throw it in anyway.
http://www.umassonline.net/DegreeList.cfm?degree_Category_ID=1
The UMass MBA program has a Foundations course that is awarded as a certificate and there a couple of others that might be of interest. It sounds like you've got a good plan. Good luck with it.
Jack

 

Unfortunately, when you go telling people you have an MBA, most assume either you're an arrogant jerk or maybe you've just been in school too long, so I try not to tell too many people

 

Yep.


However, sometimes being an arrogant jerk is what the situation calls for.

 

Some would say this of any graduate degree. Ignore them.

 

I couldn't agree more. If you go seeking for respect based solely on your education, you will be left disappointed. In my experience, it's the newly graduated that rush out to get business cards with "MBA" printed after their name. The experienced professionals let you find it out through the quality of their work.

 

Well, it depends on how and to whom one mentions one's degrees. As to the how, one can say that one has such-and-such degree (for which one is entitled to a certain sense of accomplishment) as a simple statement of fact or one can say the same thing, but with an air of superiority. As to the to whom, it depends on the relevance of the degree to your position. If, for example, one was a history teacher, history professor, museum curator, historic preservationist, or historic archivist, by all means it is okay to mention a PhD in History, if you have it. But, if you're working in some machine shop or a welding shop, you probably shouldn't tell your shop floor buddies about all your graduate degrees unless they ask you if you've ever been to college.

 

Well, it may not be what you're looking for, but the larger subject sounds like it could be the beginning of a masters thesis if it turns out that the MSCJ you'd like to get one day just happens to have a thesis component.

Which harkens back to -- or is at least peripherally related to -- my earlier "Well, excuuuuuse me!" point... which, I repeat, I didn't mean the way it was initially taken; but which I can now see from subsequent comments in this thread was not completely out of line. (Whew!)

You know... about a year or so ago, I extracted every book recommentation from that Quick MBA web site, and then merged it -- by roughly the subjects, and in the order, presented on said Quick MBA web site -- with a business/management books reading list that I've been maintaining and recommending to people for a long time. The combined lists, arranged roughly by the subjects as shown on the Quick MBA site, is pretty good. Does anyone think that DegreeInfo readers/members would benefit from seeinig it... or at least having it sitting around in the archives for later reference? Hmm. If so, then maybe I'll start a new thread in the off-topics area or something.

 

But with this universal recognition also comes some universal suspicion. There has been such an explosion of MBA programs that those three letters could mean almost anything if one is not familiar with the business school itself. As a hiring manager, I saw people with all kinds of advanced degrees, and I was far less interested in the designation of the program as "MBA" or "MS" than in the quality of the school and the content of the program. In fact, I had quite a few applicants who were newly minted MBA's from small, local schools that did not require the GMAT and were not full-time. In this case their MBA's almost hurt them. Obviously the interview process needs to be thorough, but applicants with undistinguished MBA's never began with much advantage in my office.

 

That is interesting....not enlightened...but interesting. With the great influx of MBA's I can see some schools...(I'll not mention any) in which an MBA could be seen as a lesser quality MBA, but last I checked, no RA or authentic NA school was just "giving" these out....they have to be earned. No matter what the school, I would argue that even a mediocre MBA will have a superior knowledge (if indeed it is possible for the person in question) of business than someone who simply has a BA or BS in Business (the exception being the experienced businessman/woman).

Additionally, I am from a different perspective. It has been my assumption in the past that anyone with an MBA was money bound and crooked....names like Enron and Savings and Loan come to mind....those were MBA's....probably from good schools. I do understand being critical of applicants during the interview process, that's why you are there, but to say an MBA would actually “hurt” someone because it is from a smaller school, though it may be true, is just silly on the part of the person doing the hiring.

For the record, I do not consider an MBA to be superior to an MSM or an MS in Leadership or MA in Management or what have you, just more recognizable. In fact the MBA I have chosen for myself (http://www.sjcme.edu/masterbusadmin/mbanew.html) is much more leadership oriented than business oriented. Perhaps to some (no doubt) the light amount of “traditional” business curriculum places this degree as a Leadership degree and not a business degree….I think that this is an uniformed assumption however since it 1.) sees the needs of business from a different perspective and 2.) addresses those needs in a manner which would aid the success of the enterprise in what this school sees as the meaningful way.

Thus if someone chooses not to hire me because of my “small school” MBA, then that’s fine…but I don’t think it would “hurt” me.


And Gregg.......that would make for an interesting thesis now that you mention it.

 

DesElms' book list

Gregg,

I'm a book nut. I've got lots of lists, some orderly but most overgrown. I for one would like to get my paws on your biz best list.

 

From an academic standpoint, it has been my experience that business has as much to do with criminal justice (CJ) as oil has to do with water.

My BS in business management was vastly different then my MA in criminology. From a managerial standpoint, some concepts are universal, but that is a small part of both programs; from there, the programs become divergent.

• Business deals with the bottom line, whereas CJ has an endless limit of money by sucking on the fat tits of the taxpayers. Am I being extreme in my sarcasism? Yes, of course, but you get the point. If a business exceeds its bottom line, then it goes out of business or into bankruptcy, but if a CJ agency runs out of money, then an emergency session is had with the commissioners and ***poof*** the inflow of more taxpayer monies begins.
  
• A business deals with the development of new ideas to generate new sales -- or old ideas (sales) are polished off to keep the retail monies flowing in. CJ has no such parallel. CJ deals with crimes and theories about criminal behaviors. CJ cannot be compared to capitalism; CJ is more socialistic because it is an arm of the government.
  
• My BS in business management has as much to do with running a CJ agency as selling tea in China. Conversely, my MA in criminology is relevant to the nuts and bolts of my agency.

Naturally, any degree is better then no degree, while some degrees are more suited for esoteric enterprises.

 

1. Actually, I think you mean "if a business exceeds its top line."

2. You mean that criminal justice folks don't have people coming back for repeat business?

 

Oh contraire!!! However, our repeat customers (in criminal justice) don't make us any money, unlike the repeat customers in retail. LOL

It has been said that 3% of the population commits 87% of the crimes. That means the vast majority of people are relatively good. We have the same people committing the same crimes, over and over. In my jurisdiction of about 400,000 people, we calculated that about 500 people are responsible for 90% of the annual arrests. Basically, it's the same people being arrested over and over.

For my BS in business management, we had to look at various income statements and had to analyze them to find the strengths and weaknesses in the companies. It was vastly different from anything I've ever studied in CJ because it dealt with a lot of math and forumulas.

 

Well...I'm going to have to agree and disagree. As an academic enterprise Criminology has little to do with business. Forensics has little to do with business. Criminal Justice has little to do with business with the exception of the 2 or 3 management classes I have had to take. But in "life" as it is in our dept. at least:

1.) Operates on a budget. If the budget is exceeded there had better be a dang good reason and it'll likely come out of next years numbers.

2.) We deal with "customers", remember those classes in Community Oriented Policing? DARE programs? School Resource Officers? Crime Prevention (aka non-producing) Officers? Neighborhood Watch guys, etc.....the list goes on. The difference is our "customers" don't get to choose competition, but they do get to vote much to the chagrin of many Sheriffs, Constables and some Chiefs of Police.

3.) We have people working for us within the Police Dept. and no matter what your discipline, people are people. "Sarge, why can't I have Christmas off?" and "Sarge, Officer so and so is doing such and such...." People management skills have not been given the attention needed in the Criminal Justice enterprise because of it's traditional, "my way or the highway" approach. But as the applicant pool shrinks, the salaries become more competitive and more demands are placed upon police, management skills are going to become essential. They'll need..............drum role please................"Leaders".

4.) The line level work of policing itself has little to do with business, but once in management there is a huge learning curve where now you have to learn phrases like "best business practices" and "customer driven quality" or "community initiative" etc. Now all of a sudden YOU are responsible for all this arbitrary stuff and you will have to garner the support of your guys.

5.) When placed on special committees, generally you are given a budget to work within and it smells a lot like project management skills.

6.) When the department exceeds budget, the money doesn't just appear, someone inevitably takes a black eye. Phrases like "doesn't grow on trees" and "mismanagement" are bantered about. In our department if we spend too much on cars, they cut the uniform budget, if you go over there, they cut something else.

7.) I don't view criminals as "customers". I view hooking them up as a customer service....my removing them from society is a service to that society (my customers).....of course I'm not thinking that at the time, but when you get down to the brass tacks that's what it is right?

anyhow...it's Christmas Eve, Merry Christmas everyone.

 

friendorfoe,

I understand your views, but in a criminal justice setting an MPA is a much better fit than an MBA.

Budgeting, organizational behavior, human resource managment, etc. are all covered in an MPA. Many courses in an MBA are not relevant to law enforcement and others are a stretch.

Good luck!

 

I agree with many of the posts of friendorfoe and I also agree with the post (above) of JH50.

When I think of an MBA, I think of analyzing stocks and income statements from businesses -- and I just haven't been able to make a connection of that with CJ. CJ agencies don't create revenue (or income statements) and don't generate stocks. To a large measure, an MBA deals with that sort of stuff. So if I study my arse off to get an MBA, then how relevant is it going to be to running a CJ agency? Not much!!! Naturally, the HR classes and the management classes that deal with people skills are definately relevant to dealing with police employees, but an MBA focuses on much more then that. The point is that much of an MBA isn't relevant to running a CJ agency, while small bits and pieces of it are.

An MPA is probably more relevant to running a CJ agency because it deals with governmental issues, such as sources of raising taxes, intergovernmental issues, HR and management issues. However, the MPA curriculum is about as dry as bleached bones in the Sahara desert!!!

When I was getting an MA in criminology, all of the students wanted the university to add more public administration classes because they deal with how to run a governmental operation. The students also wanted the MA title changed from "criminology" to "criminal justice administration," which sounds more relevant to running a CJ organization. As we all know, the title of a degree frequently is not an accurate indicator of how good a degree will be for a particular operation, but that's a different issue. The university did listen to the students and the title of the MA was eventually changed from criminology to criminal justice "administration," but I'm stuck with the old title of criminology, but it frankly doesn't mean didley squat to me because I really enjoyed the curriculum and the program, so I'm happy. Criminology or CJ Administration: it's all the same to me!!!

 

I think the comments of me again and JH50 in this thread are very thoughtful and good.

I think a convincing argument can be made for an MPA instead of an MBA in a law enforcement management setting...

...unless it's this MBA... which is the one friendorfoe has selected. That MBA is more about ethical, quality leadership than it is about number crunching and all the other stuff that a typical MBA typically covers. In fact, some MBA purists around here have augued -- and with integrity and validity -- that the St. Joseph's MBA shouldn't even be called an MBA because it's so light on the typical, nitty-gritty, nuts-and-bolts kind of coursework that characterize most MBA programs. That's why friendorfoe chose it.

We it not for the St. Joseph's MBA, I might argue in favor of an MPA myself. But friendorfoe's long-term goals, as I understand them, are almost as likely to be in the private sector, outside law enforcement, as they are to be in the public sector, inside law enforcement. The St. Joseph's MBA gives him a lot of flexibility and increased options, with regard to those long-term goals...

...or so it is my opinion.

I think the BSCJ from Southwestern, with some kind of management or business administration certificate; followed by the St. Joseph's MBA, is a killer combination in friendorfoe's specific case... given all that he's said in this and other threads... and, again, that's just my opinion.

Personally, I think the MSCJ on top of that would be a waste of time, and that any additional CJ work desired at the graduate level could be obtained as a graduate certificate in some area of criminal justice or homeland security once the MBA is earned; and that a PhD or some other kind of doctoral-level degree in either crminal justice, or business, or the business of criminal justice, or something, down the road -- rather than the MSCJ once the MBA is completed -- would not only top it off nicely, but would look better on the resume...

...and, all things considered, would probably be more fun to get, and would be less taxing on one's personal life and family (and, maybe, one's pocketbook) than getting an MSCJ after the MBA.

Just my $.02 worth... and I've already said in other places what it's actually worth.

 

This MBA was useful for me. I am also in the CJ field.

 

Well said. Though the cost of the AJU MPA (http://www.aju.edu/mpa.htm ) was very tempting as a "personal fulfillment" type of degree....less than 5K for an MPA that covers everything my MBA doesn't....but alas, I know what you would think of that, and you are right....but it looks so cool....

The only reason I would get a graduate degree in CJ is due to my interest in it....but a DBA in CJ?.....how odd yet, fascinating.

c.novick...........Actually that MBA was my first choice until St. Joes. I was shouted down by the MBA purists and started looking elsewhere....I found St. Joes, they started shouting again, but I didn't listen.....I knew it was for me.

Now when I argue the MBA as being applicable to LEO work, it's not the best fit for most. An MA in Management or some type of CJ Admin would make a lot more sense. Even an MPA would make more sense....but in my case, with the MBA Gregg points out, it's a bullseye.

Besides one fine morning I may wake up, leave the badge off and grow a beard.....an MBA would be a lot better to have on that morning.

 

That's the boat I'm in for the NCU DBA CJA. Boy, that's a mouthful!!!

Exactly how does one explain what a DBA in CJ is to others when the two don't apparently mix very well??? How many "schoos of business" do you know of that offer CJ degrees or CJ specializations?

My rationale is that a doctor of philosophy (PhD) is no more in philosophy than a DBA is in CJ. Hey, none of this makes any sense???!!! < scratches head > Shucks, I'm just going to go for the doctorate, come what may. The future will take care of itself.