Why should a DL degree be inferior to "conventional" degree

That makes me think of that court case where the painter accused of stealing national treasures wanted to prove they were, in fact, his forgeries. His defense was to produce a painting before the court.

Or was that just a movie?



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Quinn

 

Question... not sure of the answer.

If you eliminated all programs that...

1) Granted credit for life experience
2) Granted credit for portfolio
3) Granted extreme # of credits for external proficiency exams
4) Offered unreasonable acceleration
5) Did not offer proctored examinations as part of the assessment for the degree...

would you not eliminate all degree mills?

The response should be yes or no.

 

Cite your sources please. Who, other than you believes that? Where is the evidence that that is a "generally accepted" opinion? If it is indeed "generally accepted" opinion, you should have little difficulty substantiating that fact. The relevant journals, specialist books, and the internet, should be awash with handy references. So, could you cite them please? And what is a "respected American University"? Of the 3,000 or so US colleges and universities, how many fall into the category of "respected"?

In fact, the American Council on Education (ACE) states (1), quote:

***********************************************************
"ACE-Reviewed Certifications and Examinations"

"Using your ACE college credit recommendations allows you to earn potential college credits by demonstrating that your knowledge is college-level equivalent. In order to be eligible to earn ACE college credit recommendations, you need to at least meet the minimum passing score requirements for each certification or examination that
you take.

Each course that we review must pass successfully through a review conducted by college faculty teams to demonstrate college-level equivalency and must be examined by a psychometric specialist to set minimum passing scores. "
***********************************************************
End Quote

Let's review part of that again so that there is no misunderstanding:

"Each course that we review must pass successfully through a review conducted by college faculty teams to demonstrate college-level equivalency".

"*demonstrate college-level equivalency*".


AND

again quoting ACE (2):

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"Our mission is to make college possible for working adults like you.

How Do We Do This?

We use college faculty to determine if formal training programs are equivalent to traditional courses taught by accredited colleges across the country. We publish every
course and exam that we review and recommend for college credit in our guides."
**********************************************************

End quote

". . . equivalent to traditional courses taught by accredited colleges . . ."


Originally posted by WalterRogers:


The question is whether the acceleration is do to the capabilities of the student or the rigor(or lack thereof) in the program. Mainstream universities create curriculum
where an "average" student will take about 50 hours of work (lectures, readings, papers, whatever) per credit. In other words, an "average" student will work 6000hrs for a 4yr BA and 1500hrs (at a higher level) for a 1yr MA. And remember, this work will include a combination of both theoretical and practical and (in case of a BA) work across a number of disciplines. Obviously, if you are Doogie Howser no one should hold you back but if someone/some school is advertising that any "average" person can shave off 50%, 70%, 90%, 99% of this time in completing a degree... yes, it is a warning sign.



Of course you neglect to mention the 5 or 10 or 20 years of learning that preceded enrollment in the degree program. Here we are dealing with verification of existing competencies,not with new learning. Where significant new learning is required, it will, of course take longer to complete degree requirements. This is stated several times in the introductory chapter of "BA in 4 Weeks", and at other points in the guide.

BA in 4 Weeks - Introduction, quote (3):
*************************************************************
"The 15% to 20% of students who can consistently score "A"s in these exams or score in the top 20% of all students, can likely pass most of the same exams (within
the top 50%) with no study at all. This is not because the exams are a sham, but because these adults have accumulated a wealth of knowledge over the course of a lifetime that has direct application in these tests.

If you have less knowledge coming into the process, it will take you longer to complete it. How much longer depends on your existing knowledge base, how efficiently you study, and your native wit."
*************************************************************
End quote

Lawrie Miller, author BA in 4 Weeks http://www.geocities.com/ba_in_4_weeks


(1) http://www.acenet.edu/calec/corporate/certif-exam.cfm#M

(2) http://www.acenet.edu/calec/corporate/what-we-do.cfm

(3) http://www.geocities.com/ba_in_4_weeks/introduc.html


[I seem to be at a cultural disadvantage, here. Who, or what is Doogie Howser? Is that like Huell Howser?]

 

Faulty logic, Ken. (Incidentally, I'll be assigning you a new name to dispose, once and for all, of the confusing Ken/Walter issue. I think I'll simply refer to you as "Johnny Reincarnation.")

Define your terms, Johnny. What is "unreasonable acceleration," anyway? Does it mean, accelerated beyond a rate which YOU are capable of attaining, or is their a more objective definition you'd care to apply?

I notice you've changed your position on proficiency exams to reflect "External" proficiency exams. But you still haven't told us how you feel about H-W proficiency exams. Why ARE they different?

You haven't addressed the use of portfolio assessment or credit by exam (yes, that's testing based on life experience) by "legitimate, mainstream" places like UC Berkeley or Penn State. How do you feel about those schools? Are they less "legitimate, mainstream" knowing this?

The University of Virginia, to my knowledge, still has unproctored examinations. Are they less "legitimate, mainstream" in your eyes, knowing this?

Isn't this all motivated by your personal insecurity and inability to attain an RA degree of your own?

Give it a break, Johnny. You have absolutely no credible support for your position within the body of research on the topic.

 

I honestly believe that there is nothing wrong with a DL degree.

In fact, I graduated from Otterbein College (Cols.OH)last year with a Bachelor Science in Business with a minor in Math, through their DL program.

I was at Ohio State University, communiting back and forth. However, due to an unfortunate accident to my back I wasn't able to attend classes on campus at OSU.

So I transferred to Otterbein (took ALL my OSU & Community College credits) and spent a year and a half and finished up late last year.

*The best thing is...even though my degree is through a DL program...I landed an entry-level management job making $30k+/year.

In fact my new employer praised me on taking the initative to finish off my degree in my unfortunate situation. He didn't care if it was a convential degree or a DL degree - all he cared was that I had the skills, ability, experience, and the education.
ALL WHICH I HAD!!!!!!

 

I think that having an experienced instructor in the same room with you is a litte over-rated, in terms of *most* college courses, that is. Most of the learning takes place outside of the classroom, when the student is doing his or her research, writing papers, or working out problems from a book. And, in terms of math classes, where does instructor's experience prove helpful? "Yes, class. It has been my experience that two plus two equals four." Futhermore, why can't you tap into that experience during a chat session, by e-mail, fax, or phone? I have taken college math both in residence and by DL. In the classroom, the instructor showed us how to work the problems on the board. In the DL class, the book showed step-by-step how to solve the problems. While I was taking the traditionaly-delivered math class, if I had a question about a problem, I could call the instructor. In the DL course, if I had a question about a problem, I could call the instructor. What's the difference?

 

In the Army, we have a saying: "Train to standard and not to time." What that means for the college student is, if you can *prove by testing* that you can meet the standard in 4 weeks, rather than 4 years, more power to you. On the other hand, if it takes longer than 4 years to meet the standard, than it will take longer to earn the degree. I see no problem there.

Tracy<><

 

That's something I have noticed too. It seems that professors are the ones with biggest problem with DL. For the most part, business and industry focus on practicalities. Despite the fact that an article in business week cited some hiring managers a saying that they would not hire a DL MBA graduate, I think that the reality is that they would still consider it on a case-by-case basis. After all, that's the way hiring is done. Why? Because it's practicle.

Tracy <><

 

As do the U.S. service academies (West Point, Annapolis, A.F. & C.G. Academies), The Citadel, and Virginia Military Institute. I've heard that Harvard does also, but I've not confirmed that.


Bruce

 

Frankly, even on this issue, the diffrence between DL and traditional is not as great as it would seem at first. In a traditional course, when you take a test or write a paper, you have to wait for the next class meeting to get feedback. That may be a week later. In a DL course, even if you have to send a paper or a test in by snail mail, you often don't have to wait more than week for feedback. Therefore, under this scenario, response time is the same, or very nearly so.

It is concievable, however, that if papers for a DL class are submitted by e-mail or over the Web, feedback may come even quicker than it would in a traditional class, since the DL student does not have to wait for the next class meeting to check his e-mail or the class web page. The only limiting factor is how quickly the instructor can grade the papers and post or send the results.


Tracy<><

 

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dennis Madarang:
The University of Virginia, to my knowledge, still has unproctored examinations.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When I was doing grad work at Santa Clara university (Santa Clara, CA) and Stanford, they were entirely on the unproctored Honor System. I know of only one student who was given the opportunity to leave for cheating.

 

Quote: An example of this is the Heriot-Watt MBA by distance learning. Sure, it's a fine university and all, but if you ask many brick and mortar MBA holders what was the most educationally useful part of their program, they'll tell it was the case studies that were chewed over and batted around in study groups, then discussed in class. The Heriot-Watt DL MBA requires none of that interaction; it's simply a exam program. And while preparation for those exams requires working through various problem sets, it's not the same as meeting in person to toss around ideas.[/B][/QUOTE]

Hi,
I have completed HW MBA in June. Yes, there is no "interaction". But frankly, what it serves in the real business ? When you are in front of a mountain of problems to solve, have to define the path and strategy, there is no one to help you. I have made a lot of seminars, both participant and trainer. Those "interactions" mainly deserve the ego of some participants. In real life, the situation is different, you have to count on your own judgement. Your collegues have rarely the same training or motivators.
HW MBA has completely change my way of work, and my colleagues told me about it.
But for basic and technical training, yes, interaction could be useful. Or if you have to train people how to use A COMMON methodology.
All the best,
Stan

 

Quote:
An example of this is the Heriot-Watt MBA by distance learning. Sure, it's a fine university and all, but if you ask many brick and mortar MBA holders what was the most educationally useful part of their program, they'll tell it was the case studies that were chewed over and batted around in study groups, then discussed in class. The Heriot-Watt DL MBA requires none of that interaction; it's simply a exam program. And while preparation for those exams requires working through various problem sets, it's not the same as meeting in person to toss around ideas.[/B][/QUOTE]

Hi David,
I do not agree about the validity of "interaction". Often, only the most proeminent students or favourites of professors are running the game. Second, in real life, you rarely meet many same specialists, but a multidisciplinary group or informal stakeholders in a project. I think HW exams really force us to study and understand the material in a transversal way, means all integrated. I can see now the results with my colleagues when we have to prepare a milestone meeting, document, or project decision proposal. I am use to search, compile, countercheck and write in a short time, when some of the brillant interactive team members are just waiting someone to pull the train.
But for specific trainings, especially when there are procedures of a new way of management, it is better to study that in group. Often, everyone understand what he want to, means everyone is sure to have well catched the goals !!!
All the best,
Stan

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