Economic Value of a University Education

moneymoneymoneymoneyitsallyouthinkabout.
Jack

 

Re: Re: Economic Value of a University Education

Way to go, your true colors come through. Real good for a "Super Moderator". My daughter was very happy at podunk and is now at an an elite institution in Canada, on the Canadian taxpayers dime (thanks Bing) and she LOVES it!! As for atmosphere, I was there during admit weekend and Western Ontario has a lot to show most American schools. BTW, since people want to quibble on spelling, it's "kid's".

Gotta love the elitists or the pretenders at least. BTW, I went to worse than Podunk schools and I bet I make more than the vast majority of people on this board. The latest census had my wife and I in the top 3% nationally so I ain't (oops does ain't make me sound stupid?) doing too bad on my state community college, on base private school and online cyber school education.

People hate it when you confront their preconceived notions with the facts......

 

Yep....

Let me let you in on a little fact, money is how people live. It makes the world go round. We tend to pay more taxes for those that think it is immaterial since they like to live at the rest of our expense.

You go ahead, pay for that "private education" for that "better learning environment". I notice you haven't been able to come up with a single solid piece of information beyond your hatred for the atmosphere at Podunk U to justify your position. Don't worry, mine and my children's tax dollars will pay for your nursing home when you get there since you feel it is important to pay for a better learning environment. A very well off friend of mine was shelling out the big dough for his daughter at St. Louis University until she was accosted on campus by one of the many, many street people who make it their home. She left after one semester for my daughter's second tier "podunk u" and is now in medical school. My dentist's, another well off guy, daughter went to another "podunk u" and she is also now in medical school. Just talked to my son's pack leader who retired independently wealthy in his 50's. He was a graduate of a Texas state "podunk u". He dropped out of his PhD program at Texas A&M to get rich. He laughed when I told him of your belief's. His comment, "the world (not just the USA) is run by "C" graduates of state schools".

Give me a break, naive, at best......

 

Re: Re: Re: Economic Value of a University Education

Yes, thanks. You've just proven my point. All you think about is money. You define your success in terms of money. I'm just a lowly Social Worker. We make very little money. That is because money does not form the cornerstone of our lives. It's OK. I don't care if money is the most important thing in your life. My whole point (remember the original point?) was that there are different value systems at work here. There are many people who do not place money at the top of their list of "most important things." You seem to be one of those people who needs to see everything in terms of "right and wrong." Sometimes things are just "different." Different does not indicate a hierarchy. It just means "not identical."

I don't need you to agree with me. But if you say that I'm "wrong" simply because I don't agree with you then you just make yourself look silly. The topic we're discussing is one of subjectivity, personal values. If we go to a restaurant together and I order beef and you order chicken...which of us is wrong? Please don't tell me I'm "wrong" for pursuing my own value system. I haven't said that to you. Be more respectful.
Jack

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Economic Value of a University Education

Am I proud of my money? No, I am proud of my military career and I am proud of my children and the common sense people they are. I am, however, very glad for my money and the fact it has allowed me to provide a good home for my children and pay for their education even if it was at "podunk u". But I guess we and our unglamorous educations are beneath you. Always seems to be the attitude of many MSW's for some reason.

WE ARE NOT DISCUSSING VALUES!! That was not the original OP's post. The original post was whether or not education makes economic sense. Look, here is the original title "Economic Value of a University Education". At least debate what the thread is about.

You're not wrong because I say you are but because people who have more professional qualifications than either of us say you are. Simple.

A social worker, huh? I used to be an MP and worked for years at Human Services so I know a little about human struggle. Do this, go ask any of your clients whether or not they think money is important. You may be surprised at their answer but I won't be because I lived their life. High school dropout from a broken home, unemployed father, food stamps, dry milk and bulk cheese, the whole bit. Reality has a way of teaching people things and it isn't me looking "silly", just real.....

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Economic Value of a University Education

I'm sorry that you had a tough road growing up. Your sentence (above) indicates to me how far away we are from understanding each other. You see, in my mind, if I say that poetry or art or hang gliding or scuba diving or angora goats or crossword puzzles are the most important thing in the world TO ME then it doesn't matter what "people with professional qualifications" you care to assemble, THEY CAN NOT SAY I'M WRONG. If you can not understand this then I feel sad for you.
Done.
Jack

 

I have not done too badly in the money sense, though I would not call myself wealthy. Most of the people I know that are wealthy don't go around telling everyone they are every chance they get. It shows poor breeding.

DTECH, do you always have to be so sarcastic?, your posts always end by putting people down or saying you are more intelligent and they should learn something. Does that make you feel better about yourself? I am not trying to pick a fight here, just an observation. I am sure you will blast me back, that's ok. Feel free to do so.

If you can't post in a civil manner, maybe you should find another forum.


Abner

 

Amen brother!!!

 

DTech,

Thank you for posting the link. However, I need to point out that the MSN article you yourself cite quotes two experts supporting your thesis and FIVE arguing sed contra. I would especially note the following:

"In many cases,” she adds, "even students who are offered a ‘free ride’ by a lower ranked college would maximize their monetary worth by refusing the aid and attending the higher ranked college.”

What’s more, she says, "the returns to attending a more selective college have been rising over time,” and that the career-long income differences "swamp the differences in the total costs of attending more versus less selective colleges.”

Between the typos and your gloss on your own article, you are not representing your position well. I and many others here are not even directly arguing against your thesis per se, merely emphasizing that it fails as an absolute and certainly does not merit your angry dismissals of anyone here as "ridiculous." One final thing that IS an absolute: I am a grad student at the University of Chicago, and WE are far nerdier than anyone at MIT!

 

Darn, now that is nerdy. Very cool!

 

Re: Podunk

I agree. I'm assuming that my little kiddo will be going to UConn when the time comes (unless she gets some sort of huge scholarship to another school).
However, I recognize that others may have different thoughts and feelings about this and I not prepared to say that they are somehow wrong or stupid for having different preferences than me.
Jack

 

I'm enjoying this discussion, obviously there are some strong opinions.
That being said, I'd like to see it get back on track regarding the economic benefits (which was one of the points that DTechBA was originally trying to make before they were distracted). Is anyone on this board recommending that their children not attend college after highschool. What alternate careers are being recommended? I don't believe that someone will be a failure because they became a plumber, but I believe many parents are very insistant that their children will only be happy and successful if they not only attend college, but attend the right college. In todays environment, does it still make economic sense to push children to attend college. Is the trend reversing towards more vocational training?

 

It appears that education is a Veblen good.

 

Here is a link in which an Oregon State administrator mentions the importance of what she calls "middle-class universities" (ranked between 51-150), noting that they are increasingly DL-friendly and also that they participate in 2+2 programs, where universities partner with community colleges so that students transfer in as juniors to complete their academic major, earning almost all other credit at the CC at CC tuition. The 2+2 programs significantly change the college experience, but they are so cost-effective that I am sure they will grow in popularity and possibly even become the norm for middle class parents.

I think a lot depends on the individual student. I had a full-ride for college, my brother lurked at a local CC and ended up dropping out. Both of us are quite successful financially. I am happy to be an alum of good private schools, but I am also happy to live in a state with a Top 25 flagship public university. I wanted the "small, private liberal arts college" experience, but having to pay for it may well have driven me elsewhere. I grew up knowing how crucial scholarships would be to my opportunities, and my hypothetical children will be taught the same.

 

I should hope not. My plumber makes substantially more money than I make.
(since we're back to talking about money)
Jack

 

My high school calculus teacher bragged that he made more as a part-time plumber than he did as a teacher. Our assignments would often be numerically fantastical plumbing-related problems.

 

I honestly did not think this thread would get so many responses. IMHO, I believe one should do a line of work that makes okay money and makes an individual happy. I know such a task is difficult to accomplish and that the money factor may win out as we all need it to live in the real world. But one needs to balance making a decent living with the liking of his or her career.
As with the diminishing returns of a college or university education, I feel this may be a long term temporary situation. If potential students see if they are going to make the same amount of money if they graduate from secondary school versus college, he or she will more likely go work and not attend an institution of higher education. Most people attend college and graduate to earn more money. I wish more people would attend to learn and expand their minds. However, with the cost of education, most people choose not to do such ventures. Anyhow, as more students gradate from colleges and unviersities across the country, and more graduates become either unemployed or underemployed and straddled with student loan debts, we may see changes in the future. Again, if students see they are going to earn the same amount of money if they have earned a college degree versus a secondary education diploma, college enrollments may drop. This in turn, will have institutions of higher education complaining of unemployment or underemployment as this affects the institution's monetary coffers. So we will see a change in the economic returns of a university or college degree in the long tem future. Just my $.02

 

Studies reported by George Vaillant in "Aging Well" concern three groups: a Harvard class from the 1930's, a group of inner-city Boston white guys of roughly the same vintage, and the Terman-study women (very high IQ, born in San Francisco around 1900).

In terms of succesful aging, the Harvard guys generally had an advantage of about ten years over the inner-city guys. However, the subgroup of inner-city guys who graduated from college were exactly on par with the Harvard guys, despite enormous differences in family backgrounds. Didn't matter where they went to college, or what they studied. Interesting (to me, at least) result.

gasbag

 

Just want to throw my 2 cents into this discussion, if I may be indulged for a second.

First, let me say that I agree with several points DTechBA has made during the course of this discussion. Unfortunately, his attitude during the course of the discussion has prevented many people from fully grasping what he is trying to say.

If someone wants to go to a less expensive school, that should not be an indicator of the educational quality the person has received during his or her educational experience or of the success that person will enjoy in life. Some of the most successful people I know did not go to college or went to colleges that would be considered four tier in the opinion of many here. However, I don't know a single one of them that has not encouraged their children to go to college, and many of them brag constantly of how well their kids are doing in college. Most of their children are enrolled in top tier programs.

On the other hand, if someone makes the decision to go to a top tier school that does not mean that he or she will have instant success. However, it certainly makes it easier. Most of the successful people I know did go to top tier schools. There are no guarantees of success but a degree from Harvard (or what ever school one wants to use as an example) would certainly not hurt.

Finally, when it's all said and done, success can be measured in many ways. Some people measure it by the amount of money they have or the amount of money they make. This is the worse way to measure success as a twist of destiny can send anyone into bankruptcy in a heartbeat. Some measure it by the number of people they help (Jack Tracey is a success because he helps a lot of people in his work, and I am proud to have him as a moderator in my favorite board.). Others by their family stability. Others by the possessions they have, which is not necessarily an indicator of having money (My car, and my watch and art collections are worth more than my house and I am not rich by anyone standards, although I do pretty well.). Some measure it by the success of their children. And so on. Therefore, to use money as the only factor to consider a person successful is not only shallow, but is also wrong. Onasis was a failure in life, even if he was successful at making money, because he failed at everything else. As a father, as a husband, and as a friend.

Godspeed!