BA in 4 Weeks

But know that DANTES Principles of F is not the easiest of exams, math or no math. I thought I'd performed badly in it, but in fact the result was just fine. Suspect you may experience similar outcome. As said before, have to consider comparative performance, i.e. percentile score.

Yes. I enrolled to do BS Finance. It requires one solitary correspondence course from U of Wisconsin. I even bought that course ($500 - terrible expense) but "fell into" the line of least resistance and ended up with the more convenient testing-out option, BS General Business.

You're going to do an MBA? Have you considered H-W? Have you read my new guide on graduate credit by examination, "MBA in under 6 Months - A Guide for Indolent Slackers"?

More about which to disagree in the future

 

Wow, thanks a lot Lawrie, this is a big help for someone like me who's still starting to get a degree.

 

Because you wrote this, Lawrie:

I'm going to say categorically that is impossible for a person to come in off the street at layman's level and emerge a month later at bachelors level, particularly without "extensive study".

Consider a physics BS. Could a person complete the entire physics introductory sequence in a month? Could one go from layman's level in mathematics to an intuitive understanding of differential equations in just a month? Could one fit in all the upper division courses like advanced dynamics with its Hamiltonians and Lagrangians? All without any instruction or serious study?

Obviously you couldn't do that in any science. But perhaps it might work in the humanities.

So take English literature. Could a person read the entire reading list for a four year literature degree in a month? Chaucer? Shakespeare? Milton? Restoration, neoclassic, sensibility eras? Burns? Blake? Romantics? Realists? Conrad? Lawrence? And then could one get the kind of practice thinking, writing and criticizing the authors without any feedback and with minimal effort?

My doubts don't concern what examinations or majors the schools have available.

My doubts do concern the possibility of laypeople coming in off the street and assuming that they already have the equivalent of a university education in whatever field they want, just based on life experience or something. A very small number might, but the overwhelming majority don't.

Obviously it may be possible for many of these people to earn a degree by examination or portfolio in any number of specialist fields. I'm not questioning that. But I think that it is ridiculous to think that they can do so without a tremendous amount of work and study first.

 

It may be useful to actually read my statement before misquoting it, Bill.

Lawrie Miller Wrote:
"It is entirely possible if adequately prepared by life's experiences, through occupation, prior formal education, general reading, personal interests (e.g. politics, history, physics, literature), to review and test out in all necessary disciplines, in four weeks."

If you are arguing with the above, then I simply disagree. My opinion is based on my experience, and upon the documented experiences of others who have earned credit in multiple consecutive examinations over weekly periods.

Well, in fact, your doubts absolutely do concern the possibility of completing any degree other than that in Liberal Studies, by examination. To quote you:

Bill Dayson wrote:
"While I think that Lawrie's plan is doable in principle, I think that it would only work in one special case, in which one was seeking a BA in Liberal Studies."

I am glad if I've disabused you of that notion.

How do you know? How many competency exams have you taken, and how many credit hours did you earn by the method, Bill? I wrote 40 exams, earned 190 semester hours credit, and two regionally accredited degrees by testing out.

Where's the evidence to support your opinion, Bill? You offer no corroboration and no citations. You may have a point, but where are your data?

You should also note that I say a portion (15% to 20%) of those embarking on the process could complete requirements in four weeks. I do not say everyone could complete requirements in four weeks. I do say that 90% of those motivated to complete the process could do so within a year.

Lawrie Miller wrote in the series introduction:
"It's estimated that 15% to 20% of motivated adults could complete the process in under a month if inclined to do so. I think it entirely likely that fully 60% of motivated adults taking on this project, could complete degree requirements within six months. I am as sure as I can be that close to 90% of
motivated adults could complete degree requirements within a year."

I am basing my case on my experience and on the experience of others who have used these exams to gain academic credit. To be completely honest with you, Bill, I did it with very little work indeed. And as you have on more than one occasion over the years, implied or overtly stated, I'm no genius.

Opinion and pontification are poor substitutes for research and empirical evidence, Bill.

Incidentally, how much sweat, tears and time would it take to solicit your benediction?
Two years? Four years? Ten? How do you come to the figures? What degree of effort is required? Can you quantify it? And for how long must one sustain that effort before one has learned enough? Finally how do you know how much "enough" (learning/knowledge) might be? I use the simple rule of trial exam - study - trial exam, to establish some objective bench mark. Of the 40 exams I sat, I wrote eleven with no study whatsoever. I wont go into it. The details are in the section on exam tips.

 

Thank you. Hope you do well in your degree when your ready.

 

Lawrie-
What you suggest is very possible. With the exception of the satanic math test, most of these test are passed with knowledge gained over the last 30 years. I do a quick brush up of the terms, and the tests haven't been hard. The only challenge is taking off that much work (G) to get it in 4 weeks. Thanks for all your effort here, you've saved me a lot of time and research. One question, is there a web site for GRE that I can use to find test centers? Thanks again.

Stan

 

Thank you for relating your experience and for the kind words, Stan. Yes, getting four weeks off can be a problem. When I took time off for bouts of testing (a week at a time - 7 to 9 exams), I'd come into work Friday and the weekend to make up some of the lost time. I don't recommend doing that. Other times I'd just take a Friday off and do three exams, much more civilized.

As far as exam sites go, all four of Excelsior, ETS, DANTES and the College Board, list test sites for RCE, GRE , DANTES and CLEP exams. Go here:

RCE http://www.Excelsior.edu (follow the signs - but use Sylvan to find specific test site)

GRE subject http://www.gre.org/codelst.html (choose subject exam test center list)

DANTES http://voled.doded.mil/wconnect/wc.isa?tco~tcosrch

CLEP http://cbweb10p.collegeboard.org/wshop_clep/clep_location.html

 

Lawrie,

this sounds quite interesting to me, but one of the question I have is, if the degrees earned by examination are internationally accepted? In your second posting about the 2nd BA you mention that it would be internationally widely accepted but not in FRG (is that Germany?).
And how do I find out which GRE/CLEP exams I need for a certain degree like a BA or BS in Management or Business Administration? Are there any additional reading or guides you could recommend?

Thanks,

Michaela

 

Lawrie,

just wanted to inform you that I just found out that Regents.edu (Excelsior) quotes the relevant exams in their current catalog, which is available from their side in a PDF format, so that one is answered

Cheers,

Michaela

 

snipped

Are the degrees earned by examination internationally accepted?
Is there a German peculiarity?
With respect to this problem, Lawrie Miller is a little confused.
If accepted means recognized by an authority, the Federal Republic of Germany is not a special case. These degrees are unlikely to be accepted by the commission nationale d'equivalence in France, for example. Likewise in Italy, in Austria, in Switzerland and in other countries.
The use of an academic title, even foreign, is very strictly ruled in Germany. This distinguishes Germany from some other European countries, and not the issue of recognition.

Ulrich

 

My understanding is that some schools in Europe will not recognize all regionally accredited collegs in the United States, instead they only recognize state colleges (U of M, U of NY, etc.).

If they use that standard then thousands of private colleges are also excluded from consideration.

 

What you suggest is very possible. With the exception of the satanic math test, most of these test are passed with knowledge gained over the last 30 years.

Stan, I'm sure you'll do well. I'm a well-read 20-something and I haven't had too much trouble with the exams. An adult with a breadth of experience shouldn't have much trouble testing out since the tests are scored based on your typical college student getting a "C."

laypeople coming in off the street and assuming that they already have the equivalent of a university education in whatever field they want

Bill, the approach that Lawrie is suggesting isn't for everyone. You have to be good at standardized tests to do it; you can refer to the other threads on the SAT's for the good and bad points of standardized testing.

I know that I could have done the degree in one year if I had made it my life's obsession. As it stands I should finish it in two years.

I debated with Lawrie regarding the practicality of his plan, but not the concept. In my metro area you can't take more than 2 CLEP's or DANTES exams per month...that's all the testing centers will allow. That pace would still permit you to do the degree in one year.

 

I'll second Lawrie's comment about Strategic Management being the toughest of the Regents exams. I flunked it and decided I was unlikely to pass it the second time. I was planning to do a correspondence course through University of Nebraska when I heard that it was being offered at the local community college through a four-year college's extension program. (That was the only butt-in-seat coursework I did for the Regents degree.)

Keep up the good work and good luck.

TommyK

 

The anecdotal information I have suggests no great problem with acceptance into overseas graduate institutions. However, some here, who seemed well informed, have asserted that *any* distance degree (including one earned by way of proficiency examinations) would not find official acceptance in the FRG. As I remember it, there was some speculation that the position may change at some unspecified future date. This from memory. I can't recall the title of the thread, though. Further, that degrees from non state-funded institutions are (or may often be?) officially unacceptable.

In the case of Excelsior/Regents, there are over 80,000 graduates. Had there been a major problem with acceptance, I'd think we'd know it by now. This is not to be complacent, there will be discrimination in some quarters, some of the time. I doubt if this prejudice will focus on credit by examination specifically, but rather on the non traditional nature of the conferring institution itself. I suspect that generally, any discrimination encountered will be inconsistent and unpredictable. I was a member of a selection panel at work a while back. Discussing a candidate for one of the positions, the Chair sneered that "she got her degree *online*". Thought that a bit ironic with me on the selection board.

I reckon that much of the time, where it might be a problem, it is not an issue because the decision maker is completely ignorant of the non-traditional nature of the institution. Abroad, if there is a problem, it may be with suspicion of any foreign degree, and perhaps particularly American degrees (besides any official disapproval as discussed above). I know that I was always wary of anyone presenting such a US degree when I hired as project leader in the UK. Much of this suspicion has to do with tales of US degree mills and ads in the Sunday papers offering US university diplomas. Not the kind of awareness we have here, but a general public unease. I'd speculate that if one presented a US degree abroad, then volunteered that it was earned at a distance, and that, to boot, you completed the whole thing in a month by proficiency examinations, well, then you could have a problem!

 

I'll second Lawrie's comment about Strategic Management being the toughest of the Regents exams. I flunked it and decided I was unlikely to pass it the second time. I was planning to do a correspondence course through University of Nebraska when I heard that it was being offered at the local community college through a four-year college's extension program. (That was the only butt-in-seat coursework I did for the Regents degree.)

Keep up the good work and good luck.

TommyK

 

Ah, Ulrich, it's been a while

I'm now further confused. You state that the FRG is not alone and that these degrees will likely not find official acceptance in France, Italy, Austria, Switzerland, and in other countries.

You then point out that the use of academic title is highly regulated in the FRG as opposed to some other European countries, and that this is not an issue of recognition.

What then, Urich, is the issue? And where, precisely, is that issue an issue?

 

Yes, I agree with most of this, Michael, but do feel that as far as proficiency exams, or any other exams go, the more you know of the subject, the more successful you will be. I'm deliberately stating the obvious. I don't know that it is possible to be good at exams as opposed to knowing the subject matter. If I sit an exam that examines knowledge such as asking me my name, when I was born, the color of my eyes, I'll likely do quite well. If I am "terrible at exams", I'll still likely do quite well.

If I am "great at doing exams", and the questions I am asked relate to *your* full name, date of birth and eye color, I will likely flunk because of lack of knowledge of the subject. No amount of "being good at exams" is going to help me.

What matters is knowledge of the subject being examined. Excluding the few who have some clinical problem, all of us can be "good at exams, if we truly know the subject being tested, at the required level and depth.

Sorry that there were no multi-day testing stations in your metro area, but "BA in 4 Weeks" assumes that for such an important, life altering project, one would be willing to take time off and maybe travel a bit.

To graduate from USNY rather than Regents, I had to wrap up my first degree quickly. This before RCE computer testing generally available. I took a leave of absence from work, booked a hotel and flew to Canada for a week of testing at a Sylvan center in Vancouver. Commitment, my boy, commitment.

Seriously, If you find you have any questions on the remaining exams you listed, do let me know by email.

 

Hi Lawrie.

The recognition of a university degree and the use of an academic title are two different things.
In Germany, in order to use a foreign titel you need the recognition of your degree and an authorization.
In Switzerland it is very difficult to get professional, academic or official recognition of a foreign degree. But the authorities tolerate the use of a foreign title even if the degree is not recognized.
To sum up: contrary to some countries the use of foreign titles is higly regulated in Germany. But it doesn't mean that it's more difficult to get the recognition of your degree in Germany than in some other European countries.
It's limpid, isn't it ?

Ulrich

 

Hi Ulrich,

Yes, it's certainly "limpid". With a capital EL.

1)
So, are you saying, de facto, any regionally accredited degree will enjoy recognition in Europe, including the FRG? That is, for practical purposes, and where "recognition" is defined as real-world acceptance by state and industry employers and academic institutions (when used for the purposes of entry into higher degree programs), folks presenting US degrees will not have a problem?

2)
What about the special case of distance learning degrees, including Excelsior, COSC, and TESC degrees?

3)
What about that subset of DL degrees that form the subject of this thread, i.e., the DL degree earned entirely by way of proficiency examinations?

4)
If possible, could you give and/or reprise (short response) the official position where you know what that is, including any citations that you think might be relevant and that we might peruse ourselves?

5)
Could you expand on your perception of the practical consequences and pitfalls of utilizing a US DL degree in specific European countries?

Thank you.

 

No, I am not. Any regionally accredited degree will not enjoy recognition in Europe. There is no automatic recognition.
In some countries, like Germany, in order to use a foreign academic title, you are forced to have your degree recognized. The procedure is almost always the same. Your degree will be evaluated by an ad hoc commission. In some of these countries it is possible to use the national academic title of the host country on basis of an academic degree earned abroad. It's the nostrification. In the others it is not possible to validate an academic title. These countries recognize the diploma and degree earned without conferring to a national title.
There are also countries that tolerate the use of a foreign academic title, even if your degree is not recognized. They don't care because it's not a national title. Lawfully these foreign titles don't exist.

In Germany they forbid you to write L. Miller B.A. on your calling card, because they don't recognize your degree.
In Switzerland you may write L. Miller B.A. on your calling card, although they don't recognize your degree. But the recognition is very important.

That depends. Things are changing. Slowly, but they are changing. One can mention the ratification of the Lisbon Convention, the programs Erasmus and e-learning of the European Commission, the growing number of students, etc.
Nowadays if the curriculum is very well structured, it's not easy but not impossible.
But they are often not recognized.

The University of Lausanne writes: "
Seuls sont reconnus les programmes universitaires comparables a ceux existant en Suisse, et suivis, sauf exception, aupres d'universites publiques.
Ne sont pas reconnus: les programmes suivis par correspondance ou tele-enseignement. "

Notice that they require a degree from a public university (a public funded institution). There are exceptions but exceptional exceptions. Goodbye Excelsior and Phoenix. From this point of view the "privatization" of Regents (Excelsior) is a mistake.

In Italy, the decree that deal with recognition of foreign (non EU) degrees was issued in 1933. It applies to Italian citizens. You're strongly advantaged if you are a non E-U. citizen living in Italy with a foreign degree, because a different law applies to you.
With such an old decree it's very difficult to get recognition of a foreign traditional degree. Imagine a distance learning degree.

Try to guess.

In my opinion, and I am not alone, it's not completely a university education. I speak French, Italian and German. But my Alma Mater did not award any credit for that.

There are three obstacles

a)
The nontraditional nature of the school

b)
The U.S. nationally standardized testing systems (AP, CLEP, etc.) aren't inevitably well known in Europe. That's why their interpretation can be difficult.
But most European universities accept Advanced Placement Tests. To enter a Dutch university (in the first year) an American student neeeds a highschool diploma and good completion of five AP tests. Four AP tests in Germany. Some European universities accept the SAT II Subject Test. That's nearly all.

c)
The sacrosant structure of a university degree.
During the final two years at an American university, studies have to represent greater specialization as well as an introduction to research and analysis of complex problems.
The accumulation of heterogeneous creddits is not adequate.

I am sorry Lawrie. It's not possible. Too many countries.
I can only advise a European student to collect information.

NARIC The Network of National Academic Recognition Information http://www.namss.org.uk/naric.htm

ENIC The European Network of Information Centers http://www.cepes.ro/ Academic mobility.

ULRIC http://www.itsajoke.ch

If you were not able to get recognition of your US (DL or traditional) degree the problems are multiple. No access to a higher degree, restricted unemployement benefits, no professional recognition, no job in government organizations, etc.

Ulrich