Islamic Online University

Something Interesting

Hi everybody!

now earlier 'seeking help' said:

"how hiding women behind layers of cloth from head to toe can possibly be construed as having respect for women"

then 'Bruce' said:

"That's interesting, considering that the Arab soldiers I served with were all too eager to dirty themselves. I sold one of them a Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue for the equivalent of $100 American. They also were desperate to buy some of the booze that relatives & friends had sent us."

Now note something important:

Why did Bruce gave a 'swimsuit' issue to that soldier? Why didnt he gave an issue where 'nuns' were standing on every page who were covered from head to toe?

Thats because less dressed women revealing their body are much more sexually attractive to men (or women) than fully dressed women.

I guess thats a short and simple answer that shows how Islam gives respect to women by asking them to cover them up from head to toe.

And to be correct, Islam recommends to dress in such a manner that only a women's face and hands are visible. I guess same is the case with nuns from churches as etech said in his detailed replies.

Same is the case with men. Islam does not allow a man to wear any such dress that reveals (fully or slightly) his sexual organs.

It is human nature that the human is always attracted towards sex. You must know how many rape cases emerge and how many illegal births take place in non-islamic countries than in Islamic countries.

Now i would request you all to post in 'Off-topic Discussions' . The topic name is 'Islam Facts' as this all is off-topic i guess.

Thanks.
Kami.

 

Yes, I agree, this thread needs to go.

 

I know this is becoming a long discussion and should be moved to off topic, but here is my stab at it again. Since I am also not an expert or a scholar in Islam (maybe someday) to give detailed and accurate examples, I will still try my best. I am still learning, some day I will be where I can provide more detailed insight.

seekinghelp, with all due repect, please dont take this personal at all. The examples you gave are merely a few examples. The countries you listed are so called Democratic-Communism where people dont even have freedom of speech let aside women rights. Those countries are too much under influence, politicaly or otherwise to keep their kingdom and their seats alive. If people talk about goverment in those countries belive me they can be gone for a long time.

I have examples of Muslim people from India, Pakistan and Indonesia (largest muslim nation in the world). Someone I worked with who was from India (a muslim), his wife was a doctor and they did not had issues that u mentioned in countries which lack even basic rights. I knew a Christian who did not treat his women right. So if you come across one or two examples that does not mean that the religion is wrong. Its the way people practise it and I agree some go too far beyond what religion tells them. This is in every society and religion. Ignorance is what has caused all these problems.... So we need to study what the religion actually says. Extremisim is everywhere and I agree there are problems in some nations (and they have other problems which I mentioned) but its not everywhere and does not necessarily reflects the teachings of a religion.

no study or knowledge of religion, yet you still gave your conclusion... I find nun example very relevant to women if Islam. You treat nuns with respect, why ? because you have knowledge of that religion and why they practise and dress the way they do. But you dont have knowledge of Islam, why those women dress the way they do but you still find it unrespectable. codebox gave the example that I would have given, so I dont need to repeat.

Coming to a conclusion and saying that people do what they do in such a way which you find unrespectable. I would never say something like that about any religion unless I have enough knowledge and am in a position to say that. I know someone in US killed a Sikh (from India) man with Turban thinking he was Taliban. Its all ignorance and lack of knowledge. So I would suggest read up and study on this. God has given us knowledge, a good heart (hopefully) and a brain that works so far. We can use that to learn so much and judge good from wrong.

 

uncle janko you welcome.. I would still like to see your reply.

 

etech, you seem like a fine person. I understand what you are saying concerning researching a position before stating an opinion. I suspect you understand that people come to their innate feelings based on their observations of what they see, read, and experience. I personally have no desire to study Islam, perhaps I've made my mind up without sufficient evidence and background as it pertains to their treatment of women. I have talked to enough followers of Islam to understand that their beliefs are in many ways similar to the Judeo-Christian beliefs that I hold. But I still do not believe that women should be hidden away, not allowed sufficient education (or any education), be separated from the men in public, etc., and basically relegated to an inferior position in society based on religious principles, practices, beliefs, or whatever you want to call it, I guess respect? Some of our own Christian sects have similar aspects in reference to women, the Southern Baptists recently went through a lashing for publiclly stating that wives should defer to their husbands in all matters a few years ago. Nor do I believe in poligomy, or snake handling for that matter. I don't believe in those teachings either. That doesn't mean I'm anti-Christian.

Notice how the original poster stated that women must only show their face and hands, but men were only admonished not to expose that physical attribute that makes them men. And then goes on to state that rape is a result of men lusting after women who show too much flesh (blaming the victim?), when rape is actually about violence, not sex.

If Islamic women are happy to live draped out like in the photos I've seen and some of the women who I've seen in my hospital that is their right, or, maybe it isn't. Maybe they are living within a religion that they cannot escape for many reasons, one of which is that it is male dominated (as are most religions) and to break free of ancient translations would be seen as a denial of their faith by others, even if that's not their true feelings.

I respect your opinion, and I would appreciate you respecting mine as a woman, as my argument really is more about women and religion rather than religion alone. There are millions of Catholic women in the United States and elsewhere that don't dress as nuns, that is why I see no correlation between the two. A "good practicing" catholic woman doesn't have to swathed in yards of fabric, even many nuns don't wear the habit anymore. I simply believe in the modern world, with all its warts, including allowing women equality in society. I don't think wearing a short sleeved shirt or a hemline at the knees makes a woman unrespectable. It is simply a difference in our varied and diverse world.

As I said, I was only stating that it would seem to me that if the religion truly respected women, it would allow them to dress modestly but with freedom. That was my only point.

 

Well.....

Well said etech (earlier). I can also show many many christains in Pakistan and India who dont respect their wives and daughters! So its more a culture than a religion! Unfortunately, most muslim nations are poor economic countries and that leads to poor quality of human nature, thinking and life. You might note that most muslim women no longer cover themselves as ordered due to their culture...compare muslim girls in UK and muslim girls in Mekkah!

seekinghelp....i m sorry but u r forcing me to reply:

Seeking help, you said:
"But I still do not believe that women should be hidden away, not allowed sufficient education (or any education), be separated from the men in public, etc."

Who said to you that Islam does not allow education or higher education to women?

THAT IS COMPLETELY WRONG! My sister is a doctor and the other one is a teacher! And my university has PhDs women teaching in great way!

I have already stated that Taliban was something that destroyed the image of Islam and they were not practicing the true Islam!

And then seeking help also said:
"And then goes on to state that rape is a result of men lusting after women who show too much flesh (blaming the victim?), when rape is actually about violence, not sex."

What?? Rape is not about sex? think again plz. And i m not blaming the victim, i am blaming the cause of the rape. The man who attemts to rape is a sinner for sure but the women is also responsible as she was the one who attracted that man by wearing such a dress through which you can actually see more than enough! My earlier post gave you the reply about why women wear hijab in Islam so i dont want to repeat....

And yeah to add something more...Our Holy Prophet Mohammad's (PBUH) wife Khadija was a leading businesswomen of that time. So this tells you that Islam never ever stops women from doing jobs or education....i hope u get my point...

TC, Kami.

 

Re: Well.....

Sorry, but I must pipe in here. Rape does not only occur against women who wear revealing clothing! This is a very narrow, incorrect, and biased view of this crime. Read the statistics, and you will find many incidents of rape against the elderly, men, children, etc. Rape is not about sex, it is about violence and power, although the violence is carried out through sexual means of some sort.

Also, to insert my two cents into the Muslim women debate: I'm finishing up my fifth year living in the Gulf region (2 years in Saudi Arabia, 3 in the UAE). From my observations, as well as numerous discussions over the years with national colleagues and students, is the "severity" of concealment (i.e., the black abaya and shayla -- indicative of Gulf countries) is really more based on culture and family tradition than on Islam. True, in Saudi, this cultural characteristic is enforced by the "religious police" (official name: Society for the Protection of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice); however, in the UAE, you see amazing variance among the national women as to how much they cover. Some cover everything, including black gloves and thick stockings, others don't cover their face, others, regular western clothes with no outer covers. Islam dictates that women dress modestly (or, as the Quran has also been interpreted, to "cover their charms"). Many Bedu women do not cover, except their hair. IIRC, the black abaya and shayla (cloak and headscarf) were introduced into the Gulf region during the period of Ottoman rule.

What is often misunderstood is how much variance and diversity there actually is in the Middle East, and that includes adherement to Islam, as well. Granted, I won't deny that there are women here whose rights are being trampled on, but at the same time, there are also numerous women here who enjoy as much freedom as they wish -- example: one of my favorite former students has just been accepted into an MS program in the UK -- she leaves in the fall, will live alone, and although she wears the abaya in the UAE, she won't in the UK -- just a colorful headscarf.

Anyway, I realize this is off-topic here, but I just had to comment -- particuarly concerning the way rape was spoken of.

Regards,

Adrienne

 

Thank you Adrienne.

 

Re: Re: Well.....

and the points that we were trying (at least we tried) to clarify. specially when seekinghelp said she finds women dressed from head to toe as unrespectful.

What I said initially and the reason this topic started was that "Islam teaches respect for women" and that is still correct. "Islam teaches respect for women" period. In every society and religion dressed up women is treated with respect as oppose to undressed or short dressed. So again I am reiterating "Islam teaches respect for women". There are variances on how its practised and conveyed to unknowledgeable (in Islam) observers and how they interpret that.

 

The Western world seems to have unwoven religion from culture to a large degree.

Islam makes no distinction. What is cultural is freely added to and becomes part of the religion.

I do know someone who married an Egyptian (religion??). She was back in Canada quickly.

 

Re: Re: Well.....

Well i know that rape does not only occur against women who wear revealing clothing. But at the same time, revealing clothing is a reason for the rape along wit many others. We are talking about revealing clothing is a cause of rape (as you urself admitted).

And you said:
"Rape is not about sex, it is about violence and power, although the violence is carried out through sexual means of some sort."

I dont really understand that. Its carried through sexual means of 'some sort' and still its not about sex.???:S

You said:
"Read the statistics, and you will find many incidents of rape against the elderly, men, children, etc."

Can you tell me the percentage of such cases? Such cases are merely nothing in front of the type of rape where a 'man attacks a women sexually'. Man why dont you understand that i am not covering 'rape' specifically here but i am trying to cover one of the reasons why women get raped!

I hope you understand.

 

In just a cursory review of several websites including the department of justice's website last night, the incidence of the rape of men is reported at about 7% of all reported rape, but since rape is greatly under-reported in both sexes the actual number is unknown. The youngest rape victim reported was 2 months old and the oldest was 94 years old, the sex of the victims was not indicated.

I am going to make an assumption here that since I read elsewhere that you are 19 years old and looking at the country of origin under your name that you may not have had many classes in pyschology, sociology, or criminal justice as taught here and simply haven't been exposed to the fact that rape is about violence and power as Adrienne and I stated. I don't believe citing more reference will change your mind unless and until you investigate it yourself. Should I decide to learn more about Islam, I will do the same.

And this thread has gotten entirely off focus from it's original intent, sorry I've been a part of that, I now relinquish this thread to the theology experts.

 

The END!

perhaps u r right seekinghelp! as i started this thread, i now officially declare THE END of this thread!

**So no more replies please**

But there is no need to get kinda against each other as the forums are for opinions and every individual has her own opinions.

Okai Bye 4 now!

BTW seekinghelp, i really liked the quote in your signature so i put it in as my MSN nick! cheerz.

 

Good luck with your studies, codebox. I really do wish you well.

 

Christian College

Distance learning is great, but you should also consider attending college to help build your character. I decided to go to a Christian College, and it was the best decision I ever made. I would check out Liberty University.

 

Thread necromancy? From 2004? Really? Dude you really should get the ban hammer.

ITJD

 

It's not against the rules to raise a thread from the dead but when a total newbie digs back 6 years just to make a plug for a well-known school then Moderators will think, "The game is afoot." that's a tiny sherlock holmes reference, just in case you missed it

 

Deleted my comment, didn't realize this thread was so old.

 

Ok. Since this thread was bumped up, there is a school, I think overseas that offers a Masters and PhD in Islamic studies.

 

2nd post was from Unk; I thought we were in touch with the afterlife...