Is There a Doctor in the B-School

Don't Stop Now!

This thread is really an eye-opener! Keep it coming guys (and gals?)!

 

Maybe I misunderstood

But I understand that the UNISA DBL has a very extensive reading list for which a paper and an exam are required. Then there is a dissertation or its equivelant. This appears to be very similar to a UK DBA program except in the place of the readings you have a taught component.

Comments Angela?

 

So, how can the 3 1/2 year AACSB Grenoble DBA be explained if a time requirement is an issue?

Cy

 

MBA Graduate - I think the key here is that there is little motivation to AACSB B-School deans to offer a DL PhD program. You may want such a program, but what would a school gain by offering such a program?

1. Quality PhD programs are labor intensive and typically very small. End result - a big financial hit if you tried to do a quality DL program.

2. Grad students are typically used to teach undergrads and conduct research. Great - but DL students can't teach undergrads or serve as assistants to on-campus faculty. Further, B-Schools don't get much research funding from the government anyway. NSF, for example, doesn't give money to B-school work.

3. Most AACSB schools pride themselves on being quality institutions. The image of DL doctoral programs in business is pretty weak. What dean would want to compete with Argosy, UoP, NCU, Capella, and even Nova Southeastern, etc? Frankly, they would probably see this as beneath their dignity.

I suspect you won't see AACSB B schools jump into offering a DL PhD anytime soon. Some, like Case Western, may do a doctoral program with a different label (as in Doctor of Management). Others, like Cleveland State or UMUC, offer programs that can be completed part-time, but are not DL.

Regards - Andy

 

RFvalue - A cynical answer might be "Because a 3 year part-time DL degree is clearly inferior to a 5 year full-time on-site degree". At the very least, 3 year part-time programs involve "less" of something compared to full-time programs. One can argue whether the "something" matters or not.

Just because two schools offer a degree with the same letters (PhD) doesn't mean the experiences are comparable.

A similar situation exists with MBAs. An MBA from Harvard takes two academic years. A part-time MBA program can be completed in as little as 12 months from a DL school. Same letters after your name - but which experience is more intense? Which experience better qualifies one for a management position? Which degree program is more demanding to get into and has higher quality students?

I'm not saying that part-time programs have no place. However, the continuing trend of schools to accomodate students and make programs more "accessible" is leading to diminished academic standards, IMHO.

Regards - Andy

 

RFValue - key error here. AACSB does require 75% of the teaching load to be done by "participating faculty", but this doesn't mean "full-time".

AACSB has wisely determined that "participating faculty" can be full or part-time, tenured or non-tenured. The point of "participating" is that they participate in faculty governance, do tasks other than just teaching and that they have multi-year contracts (not term at a time deals).

I think AACSB is right on target. They aren't backing lazy, tenured faculty. But they are saying that faculty need to do what faculty should do - teach, develop curriculum, conduct research and provide service.

Schools like NSU have hope of becoming AACSB accredited. They can't afford to have 75% of their faculty full-time. They may, however, be able to have 75% of their faculty "participating".

Regards - Andy

 

MBA Graduate - I think the key here is that there is little motivation to AACSB B-School deans to offer a DL PhD program. You may want such a program, but what would a school gain by offering such a program?

I suspect you won't see AACSB B schools jump into offering a DL PhD anytime soon. Some, like Case Western, may do a doctoral program with a different label (as in Doctor of Management). Others, like Cleveland State or UMUC, offer programs that can be completed part-time, but are not DL.

Regards - Andy
_______________________________________________

Andy,

Thanks for the information. Just some comments on your points:

1. Quality PhD programs are labor intensive and typically very small. End result - a big financial hit if you tried to do a quality DL program.

The Grenoble DBA is a 3 year part-time program. I would think
that if an AACSB university in the USA would offer such a program, it would get many applicants. My guess is that the potential would be great to make a lot of money by being the first to offer this. Even if the program required residency of possibly 1 week in a year. From some of the people, that I have been talking to at Grenoble, I found out that there are many many students enrolling in their program.

2. Grad students are typically used to teach undergrads and conduct research. Great - but DL students can't teach undergrads or serve as assistants to on-campus faculty. Further, B-Schools don't get much research funding from the government anyway. NSF, for example, doesn't give money to B-school work.

I know several Grenoble students who teach undergrads via distance learning (online).

3. Most AACSB schools pride themselves on being quality institutions. The image of DL doctoral programs in business is pretty weak. What dean would want to compete with Argosy, UoP, NCU, Capella, and even Nova Southeastern, etc? Frankly, they would probably see this as beneath their dignity.

I don't look at it as competing with those schools (uop, ncu,
capella etc..), but rather to fill a need. Many PHD or DBA seekers are sending their money overseas because they cannot get it here in the USA.

I just cannot understand why our universities hire PHD or DBA graduates from other countries who have gone through a part time program, while working. Yet don't offer us (USA) citizens the same opportunity.

Andy, I have a very good job with the US government as a Manager in Information Systems. I think I would be taking a major risk to quit my job to attend an AACSB accredited PHD or DBA program in the United States. I would like to get the DBA or PHD because I want the option to get into university as a professor. I like my job, but I can see myself as a professor when I am in my 50s. I currently teach undergrad via an online regionally accredited university. Do you think I should:

A. Send my money overseas and get a DL DBA from an
accredited AACSB university?

B. Just get a PHD in Business (my interest is in Information
systems) from a Regionally Accredited only distance program
such as NSU, NCU, or Capella. (This is what I am doing now
and hoping for the best afterwards)

Andy, I value your comments on this board very much.

mbagraduate
AAS - Computer Programming (DMACC)
BSIT - UOP
MBA - AIU
PHD - Enrolled at NCU

 

I don't know where you got the 3 years and a half but from the web site the program is designed to be finished in 5 years and half, plus the waiting time to get your dissertation revised and the changes required. I would say it would take a minimum of 6 years.

http://www.grenoble-em.com/contenu/ens_rech/dba/dba_schedule.asp

 

Wow, so now it came down from 3 years and a half to three years. I might be wrong, but the website clearly mentions a time frame of 5 years and a half to the submission of the final dissertation. I would add another 6 months for the time require to revise the dissertation.

I don't know where you got the 3 years and a half but from the web site the program is designed to be finished in 5 years and half, plus the waiting time to get your dissertation revised and the changes required. I would say it would take a minimum of 6 years.

http://www.grenoble-em.com/contenu/...ba_schedule.asp

 

Andy,

I might be wrong. But most of the AACSB accredited PhD programs would require an MBA from an AACSB accredited school as an admission requirement.

So even if a PhD from an AACSB accredited schools is offered in the DL format, mbastudent might not be elegible since his or her MBA is from a non AACSB accredited university.

 

There is so much wrong information on this thread about Grenoble that it should be closed and removed from degreeinfo!!

RFValve - At least you started yours with "I could be wrong"

Many on this thread have sited incorrect links and wrong information, make sure you know somewhat what you are talking about before commenting!!!!!!!!!

 

RFValve:

Where did I get the 3 years from?...from members of this forum who are enrolled in the program. This is a quote from Denver in an old thread...


I am completing my third (and final) year at Grenoble Graduate School of Business. I have enjoyed the process very much. This is still a pilot program, and the school never plans on having a very large doctorial program – but if you are looking for a DBA that is part-time, from a prestigious school and that also gives you experience in the European Union you may want to consider it.



Cy

 

Han,

Since you are enrolled in the Grenoble DBA program (as you have stated in other threads) why don't you enlighten us?

Cy

 

If Han is enrolled at Grenoble, here is the perfect opportunity to educate us in regards to that program.

 

Han,

The information I posted comes from the website. The info posted there could be out of date. The site clearly states 2 years part time for the course work and 3 years part time for the dissertation.

http://www.grenoble-em.com/contenu/ens_rech/dba/dba_content.asp


Could you send us the right link?

 

RFValve,

I also have noticed the conflicting information. I would love to have someone clear this up. For the life of me, I can't figure out why the Grenoble DBA program is so hush-hush. Maybe we just don't know the secret handshake.

Cy

 

First some corrections, then some facts that I understand them about Grenoble!!

RFValve – There is no time requirement for AACSB schools to have for doctoral students that I have ever seen. I am not sure where the 6 years, then 5, etc. came from, but it is not in anything I have read in the AACSB guidelines. Can you provide a link or any substantiation to this? The schools base the requirements on being fulfilled on their timetable, each school is different.

You asked for the website: http://www.grenoble-em.com - Ms Sophie Bélanger is the program administrator, Chair of the US program Jean-Jacques Chanaron, Chair of Doctrate programs is Dimitris Assimakopoulos. The one you posted is the joint program on the New Castle Program, which is not this one. It is not on the website that I can find, and I am not sure why, maybe becuase it is in the pilot stage, not sure.

Andy – I am not sure where you think that quality program in a doctorate program are required to teach. This simply is not the case, though you can give me many that require it, I can site MANY that don’t.

Further your comment of a DL doctoral program in business being pretty weak, you need to remember that most of a doctoral dissertation is set up for research. If you need babysitting in a class room, I would consider that weak, but it is all perspective I guess. But then you jump to Argosy, UoP, NCU, Capella, Nova – none AACSB schools, so the examples don’t fit the comment. You commented about Case Western, which has residency requirement, but is DL, then jumped to UMUC (not AACSB schools). Trying to follow the logic, but not able to, since it is apple and oranges.

MBA’s via DL were also not the norm 5 years ago, but technology has taught us that things do change, and I disagree with your assessment that a DL program will not be offered. What about Ashton, Henley?? Seems the Europeans are a bit more on the leading edge than the states.

Mbastudent - you are right, there is a huge influx of students WANTING to enroll, but even last year, from what I was told, there were over 200. Not sure the numbers this year. It doesn’t really matter, since there is a limited amount of seats, it will just get more competitive to get in.

There are students at Grenoble that teach distance, but there are students in the DBA program that teach at AACSB brick and mortar schools as well. Don’t make generalizations, there are both.

RFValve – the site you posted it GGSB’s full time on campus program, not the part time DBA. There is a part time program for China, India, and the US – all separate part time programs.

There are many students that have RA MBA’s in the US program, but due to recent events, that may change. But from past classes, it is not a preclusion for admission (actually it was the majority).

Cyrus – You said GGSB is not a University? If you are a student, I can’t understand this comment? I guess I don’t understand that posting? If you don’t mind, please expand. Do you not think it is a University because University is not in the name? Because it is a Business school? Please clarify if possible.

Lastly, the DBA is not AACSB accredited, since they have not had a graduating class, but GGSB is. It will be applied for once this happens, but it is too new to have the accreditation. This might make the entire discussion a mute point, you make the call. This was a recent finding to me, so this is why I state firmly, go to the source for information on the program!!!

I will say – if you are looking into this program, talk to ONLY A FACULTY OR ADMINISTRATOR AT THE SCHOOL! Others may comment, even those in the program, and may even give information that is not accurate (I have, not knowingly), so make sure you speak to ONLY THE ACTUAL SCHOOL’S ADMINISTRATORS. Through no fault of the students at times, information is sometimes conflicting – SO ONLY TALK TO THE SCHOOL!!!

I agree with Cyrus that the program is very hush hush, and it is unfortunate. Cyrus, if you are a 3rd year student and it isn't all clear to you, I guess it will not become more clear with time for me

I will not go into details on the program, as that is the school’s job. I have not stated anything in particular at this point, nor do I want to discuss my personal details, only to say, to go to the school for information. Other threads are mute at this point, since circumstances change and information changes to many’s surprise. My words of wisdom - Get information from the source.

Cyrus – Congrats on being almost through the program!! Way to go!

P.S. - I tried to stay out of the discussion for as long as possible, but when the link was for a completely different program, I wanted to say something. I have also had problems since Saturday signing on, I was getting errors, so I had to sign on the main page and go to “recent postings”, all other ways I get an error, so sorry for the delay!

 

my two cents

RFValve, you point out that most (but not all) PhD programs would require an AACSB MBA. Just thought I'd add in my two cents about a program that doesn't:

The PhD program in business at UTSA (the Univ. of Texas at San Antonio) doesn't require an MBA for admission -- just a Master's. However, if you don't have an MBA, or have a certain number and type of graduate business courses completed, you'll have to complete those first (at the MBA level) before starting the PhD program (but you don't have to earn the full MBA). This is how I've ended up with 27 semester hours of MBA credits and no MBA.

Speaking of which, anyone know of an MBA program that would accept all my credits if I transferred them in to complete the MBA? The U. of Texas online MBA system isn't a viable option -- the residence MBA and online MBAs are in very different formats.

Regards,

Adrienne

P.S. It's great to be able to access the boards again! I was going through withdrawals!

 

Han,

Thanks for providing some clarification on the program. Actually, I'm not a student at Grenoble; I was just trying to get some more information on the program. I can understand the confusion though. In a previous post in this thread I quoted Denver who is a GGSB student and forgot to put quotations around his statement.

As far as my statements regarding GGSB not being a university, I was thinking aloud and hoping that some clarification could be brought forth as to what kind of entity it is.

Thanks again for the clarification,

Cy

 

Regarding the time-conflict at ESC Grenoble: could it be you´re talking about two different programs? The (old) one where some British university awards the degree and the (new?) one where ESC Grenoble itself does so?

Regarding the "status" of ESC Grenoble (Ecole Superieur de Commerce, the "mother" institution of the "Business School") - it´s legitimate and it´s degrees are by law accepted in the whole EU- but: it´s CERTAINLY not a "university".


Han wrote
Cyrus – You said GGSB is not a University? If you are a student, I can’t understand this comment? I guess I don’t understand that posting? If you don’t mind, please expand. Do you not think it is a University because University is not in the name? Because it is a Business school? Please clarify if possible.

The French educational system is extremely different to the rest of the world - the ESC´s are "commerce schools" that have the right to grant degrees, but they are certainly not universities in the way the rest of the (academic) world understands it. They are besides much more workplace- than science-oriented, so in this regard awarding MBA´s and DBA´s is totally fine for them - but a (scientific) PhD from an ESC would in most cases not be considered as a "real" scientist in (research) academia.

For those of you who speak French, here´s a list of all legitimate French universities (Université):
http://www.education.gouv.fr/sup/univ.htm

Resumée (Conclusion): legitimate professional (!) degree from a legitimate French institution of tertiary education, i.e. not too qualifying for academia (at least not in continental Europe)...