Luther Rice PhD

I have done one and even took leadership courses as electives, which has influenced my opinion. My study of the behavioral and social sciences has also influenced my opinion. Organizational leadership and educational leadership have become generic, cash cow graduate programs. Why get an educational leadership doctorate when you have no interest in leading K-12 or postsecondary institutions or corporate training programs, and you have no interest in teaching leadership courses? When I finished my first master's degree 10 years ago, the options for online doctoral degrees were more limited. I wanted to study something related to international relations. One of my professors told me to get the PhD in leadership like he did just so I can have the required doctorate for professor positions; I would rely on my master's degree for 18 credits in a subject. He was well-meaning, but I'm glad I didn't take his advice. I would have been bored out of my mind, and there's so much competition for teaching positions now, that generic doctorate plus a specialized master's might not cut it.

 

If one were to look at it as a business degree, it's less quantitative than several other business fields. It also can be offered to someone with any educational or professional background because every field has leaders.

 

Before we accept the idea that people who get a doctorate in Leadership are just getting "doctorized" (or whatever), I would like to see some actual evidence of that as compared to other disciplines. Otherwise, I have to think this is just made up.

As for delivery, yes, it is quite amenable to nontraditional delivery methods. It occurs in that space between the right and left temples.

In my 40-plus years of developing leaders, I've seen how casually the notion of leadership development gets tossed aside by people who don't actually understand it. Ironically, these people are often in "leadership" positions in their respective organizations. (I would contend they are not; they're in management positions--a distinctly different concept.) Nonetheless, whether one respects leadership as a discipline that can be taught, learned, and researched, it is the key element to moving up in an organization AND being successful at it. But as Laurence J. Peter warned us, organizations are filled with people promoted to their level of incompetence. I've seen nothing in my work, my studies (including an executive leadership program at Harvard), nor my own research and writing to belie that assessment.

Frankly, we all could use a lot MORE study and work in leadership in all aspects of society.

 

This remains an unsupported assessment. It might be true. But extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. A few tossed-off anecdotes doesn't quite cut it.

Now, let me take a bit of steam off of this. This is a discussion board, not a research lab, and I say a lot of things I don't go around supporting to the hilt, either. However, it's fair to say that the assessments of the observer can be judged by assessing the observer him/herself. I think I have the education, training, and experience to add sufficient weight to my statements on this subject, and I would put them up against any other poster here in that very narrow regard.

 

Management PhDs normally include leadership but also subjects in organizational psychology, governance, project, etc. It is way more marketable than a PhD in leadership. However, some people do leadership mainly because they lack quantitative subjects and the research can be more qualitative. I also can see its value if Im already a full time faculty in any other business subject and just need a doctorate to get a better salary. When I was working in CCs, many full time faculty got EdDs while their main teaching subject was CS, Finance, etc but the EdD was just a generic PhD that satisfied the pay increase. This degree seems to be similar, it can help me just to get the doctorate qualification with a softer subject so I can achieve my goal.

 

Do you teach in a leadership degree program? Do you have a leadership degree? If I recall correctly, you graduated with your last degree long before leadership degree programs became popular.

 

My qualifications are well-known. I'll let them speak for themselves. (My last degree was in 2015, by the way.)

 

You said that you would put your qualifications up against anyone here, and now you don't want to speak about them. How are people supposed to assess whether your opinion of leadership programs holds more weight? I only know that you have a doctorate from a European school, a doctorate from Union Institute, and work experience in the military and human resources. None of us here are exactly famous.

 

As long as we are staying in an ad hominem territory: who here thinks actually finishing a doctoral program (or two) adds weight to one's opinions in assessing doctoral programs? More than being, say, a perpetual ABD?

Different fields may have different levels of rigor; this doesn't mean trying to push others' choices down is not both transparent and sad.

 

I'm not the one who brought up credentials, so why are you attacking me? I forgot. That's how you guys are.

 

I finished my program, by the way, and I'm waiting on conferral. It seems that you didn't bother to read the entire conversation and defaulted to jumping to Rich's defense. Typical. Let's not pretend that Rich hasn't criticized certain majors for having PhD programs because they aren't "academic fields of study."

 

I don't recall many people agreeing with that distinction.

 

I don't recall you attacking Rich for it. Maybe I missed one of those conversations.

 

So you think that "attacking" is the only course of action when people disagree? This would explain a lot, actually. As I recall, the field in question was dance, another poster (Johann?) stated a different opinion, and that was basically it. You also had an opportunity to make your case and not have a battle over it.

 

That's what you're doing right now. LOL. You posted an ad hominem attack directed at me over something Rich started.

 

Yes, many times this is the reason to get such a degree. If I already have a good teaching position in Finance and Accounting, I could just get the PhD in Leadership to fill the PhD requirement. Most schools look at the 18 credit requirements and publication record. It does not matter if my PhD is in leadership if I have a CPA and MSc in Accounting with a good publication record, I can still qualify for an accounting professor job at many universities.
There is no doubt that leadership is an academic and valid area of research that can be combined with accounting, finance or any other business field so it can be a good PhD for any business professional.
However, the OP has only leadership degrees and now is aiming at a PhD in leadership. It seems to be that options are limited with such a narrow field but it does not make it an invalid area of research.

 

I wonder if that's true for most schools. I see 18 credits mentioned a lot for adjunct and other part-time positions and some full-time positions at community colleges. I don't see it a lot for professor openings at 4-year colleges and universities, especially for tenure-track positions. Then, there's the issue of being competitive, not just meeting minimum requirements. When we look at who is hired at 4-year colleges and universities, how many professors don't have a doctorate in the field or a closely-related field? There are certain fields where I often come across distantly related or unrelated doctorates, but that's because those fields don't have many doctoral programs, which limits the number of candidates. Someone might be able to teach with just a master's degree in accounting and any doctorate, but not all leadership majors have finance and accounting degrees. Based on the research articles I've read on who leadership programs target, I doubt that most leadership majors have quantitative degrees.

I think it's a valid field of study. I think almost anything is a valid field of study, but you don't always need an entire degree in something to study it. Some people dedicate their entire careers to studying victimology, but I have yet to see a doctoral program with a major in victimology.

 

I'm going to pass here. There is no positive outcome to be achieved. I've been posting on this board since its inception more than two decades ago. One thing I've learned is to consider the outcome you seek in such an exchange. I have none.

We differ. That's good enough for me.

 

Here is an example of someone in the academic field of management studies.

Friedrich Winslow Taylor (efficiency studies and scientific management).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Winslow_Taylor

This of course not really the end game of a Leadership degree. I agree with sanatone's general assessment that Leadership/Organizational Leadership is often a first degree in the field for people who want a doctorate (or Masters) that they think will help them professionally. The vast majority of these are not likely to involve substantive research and contributions to the field. Though there may well be some. As others have noted these degrees are marketed to people and profitable to the school.

 

I have a friend that works in leadership training. She does well but she has more than 20 years in executive coaching under her belt. She happens to have completed a PhD from a metaphysical school in leadership. It is a non accredited PhD but when you are a trainer, the PhD is just a tag to sell your courses.
You can make a living in leadership training or coaching, many people do this. The OP has a leadership masters and bachelors so I agree that for him a PhD in Psychology or management or any other field that requires quantitative training might be difficult.

However, there are other PhDs in Management with little quantitative coursework, so maybe it is just matter of finding a better fit. The idea is that you could teach other courses than leadership. I personally would find very hard to find work just teaching leadership. Most demands come from any management subject including Project Management, HR, etc.