Stealth H-1b increase for IT

All legal workers in the USA pay into Social Security with the possible exception of a few categories. H1B and TN workers must pay into Social Security whether on W-2 or 1099.

 

No. Incorrect. And I already made this point. Let's go back to J-1's for a moment. I already made mention that this visa has now become an entry level job visa and does not pay social security taxes. See http://www.northwestern.edu/nuin/postdocs/international.html
as an example of what everyone else who hires knows. "Also holders of J1 visa do not pay social security. "

The J1 is preferred now over the F visas because the J1 allows the spouses of J1 holders to work here, with the same benefit. Adding many more visas than the J1 really allows.

Now, move to the H1...Perhaps you might have missed my previous posts about the Totalization Agreements. See this http://www.immigration.com/faq/irs.html

Also, see http://www.ssa.gov/international/

"A totalization agreement allows a citizen or lawful permanent resident of one country temporarily working in the other country to avoid paying that country’s social security taxes under the detached worker rule.In general, a detached worker is an individual who is on a temporary employment assignment that is anticipated to last five years or less."

Some H1's DO pay SS. Many don't. Many do not pay SS. As I said, the 5 years they spend here, prior to getting the green card, are 5 years that the U.S. does not get Social Security. If an American worker had the job then the tax could be paid into the system and benefit the U.S.

Just heard New Gingrich on CSPAN talking about Social Security wage earners from a few years ago. He said that it had been 42:1. Meaning, for every person on SS there were 41 paying into SS. He says now that the ratio is 3:1. Wow!

Of interest, see San Jose Mercury News..."The National Association of Software and Service Companies (NASSCOM)
also said Vajpayee would seek an early signing of a ''totalisation
agreement'' with Washington to eliminate payment of social security
charges by Indian workers in both countries."

 

Re: Re: Just cheap labor and only cheap labor

No. Not in the least confused. You are and should take the time to read the posts and research else be silent because it is obvious you are not up on this information.

 

Let's discuss the L1 for a moment, too

Right. They go back home. I seriously doubt it. Few ever go back home.

I knew one Indian, TCS, guy that did just recently. He said he was going home to take care of a sick father. Another TCS guy told me differently. He was here on an H1 and he says TCS was afraid he was going to bolt after his year.

Knew another TCS guy that called in sick for 3 days. By Wed TCS was calling us to find out about him. He moved across country and took a job with IBM.

NOW THE L1
Increasingly, companies like TCS are relying more on the L1 to control their people so they can't bolt. Of course, the L1 avoids any tax here but works here. Thus, depriving the U.S. of social Security again. (the L1A visa...for managers. sure, we have a shortage of managers here, too, right?)

 

Re: Re: Re: Just cheap labor and only cheap labor

My bad: didn't read your post in its entirety. But it seems that it would be a significant problem ONLY IF "Congress falls to the Indian lobby" (is there any indication of this ever happen?) - citizens of the countries having these agreements now (like Canada or Japan) are not "cheap labor" and it's not inconceivable to imagine them actually going back. So, I'm willing to bet that currently, wast majority of H1s DO pay SS taxes with no guarantee of seeing their money back.
Besides, what would be the details of such agreement? See Japan:
"Under the agreement, if you work as an employee in the United States, you normally will be covered by the United States, and you and your employer will pay Social Security taxes only to the United States. If you work as an employee in Japan, you normally will be covered by Japan, and you and your employer pay Social Security taxes only to Japan.

On the other hand, if your employer sends you from one country to work for that employer in the other country for five years or less, you will continue to be covered by your home country and you will be exempt from coverage in the other country. For example, if a U.S. company sends an employee to work for that company in Japan for no more than five years, the employer and the employee will continue to pay only U.S. Social Security taxes and will not have to pay in Japan."
It's unclear how this translates to "H1Bs don't pay SS taxes" - H1B by definition works for a US company. Help me out here - I'm not a tax accountant or attorney.

I KNOW J1s don't pay SS - I'm currently a J1. Would be incredibly... hm... "counterintuitive" to make "visitor scientists" and "students" pay SS, wouldn't it? Anyways, it is my impression that using J1s as "cheap labor" is mostly contained to university research - isn't it?

Using L1 as a substitute for H1 seems "wrong" to me - basically it is a way around "prevailing wage" rule. I'd like to see this loophole closed.

And finally, charging an unrefundable SS tax from a temporary worker is profoundly unfair - wouldn't you agree?

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Just cheap labor and only cheap labor

Stanislav,

You work grading papers for some professors on a J-1. Maybe you are doing other things in your job for them, too. Highly likely since you are a grad student(I think you are a grad student).
Any Americans holding the same job as you have to pay into Social Security to benefit the elderly and aging in this country(or to fund whatever pet projects the Congress "borrow" SS money for). The difference between them and you is that they are helping support the SS system and you are not. We are not talking about the benefits one receives sometime in the future for paying SS. We are talking about the SS sytem support now(which is a shambles but hey, it's all we have).

The difference then, if you are in a grad program, is that we already have shown that we don't need graduate degreed people. Why? Go back to the special category that was created for the H-1, an additional 20,000 slots were created for that but not filled up or filling at this time. This field is only for MS and PhD. And after Congress fell for the scam of the CEO lobby that we "needed these slots".

So, now let's get down to the heart of the matter. A company makes out big time by having a visa holder not paying SS. Why? In this country two portions of SS are paid...one by the employee and one by the employer. If you are not required to pay SS then the company(or university) makes out by not having to pay their part of SS either. This looks good on the bottomline and has a great effect on the near immediate greed for the CEO crowd. Simply cut the workforce and save all that SS money by outsourcing to contractors with H-1/L1 visa'd people. Chaching!!! Bonus time!

Exactly! I agree with you 100%. richtx already made a good posting in another thread on the L1 topic. That about sums it up... http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=214527#post214527

No. I don't agree. Let's call it a cost of doing business for the visa holder. There must be some give due to the fact that an American did not get that job. People from other countries want to come here and make money. Even if they never get the SS back they still make more money here than they could in their home country. If they never get the SS back you think that there would be fewer applicants for visas coming from those countries? Of course not. There would be as many as ever.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Just cheap labor and only cheap labor

Yeah, I actually AM a grad student.
I think you oversimplify the matter with those 20K visas. Do you think less foreign grads stay in US each year? I think they just use other visa categories (maybe some manage to get GC during OPT, or get a postdoc on J1, or get "regular" H1B, or get H1B at a university as a researchers - not subject of a cap. ). You said yourself that not ALL of us go back (although we are technically required to INTEND to go back. For official record: at the time of my visa application, I fully intended to return to my country. Seriously, I still don't rule out the possibility).

So you think it is EASIER for a foreigner to get accepted to grad school? Maybe... but I really doubt it.

And BTW: I'm not sure about MS and PhD graduates, but there seem to be a constant demand on graduate students (and postdocs) of all nationalities. You may be right about "cheap labor" in this case. Has nothing to do with visa status, though.

So call it that, then. A "tax on a foreigner". Or "social security of other people".

P. S. I'm more than willing to pay any "cost of doing business" that the law may require. If it ever become unbearable, I'll just leave. I just don't understand the outrage when someone doesn't (like those "cheap labor" folks from UK, Luxembourg, Canada, Ireland and Japan).

 

The H-1B swindle

A new study shows that companies hire foreign workers for cheap labor, not skill

It appears there is hard evidence to prove that employers are using the H-1B visa program to hire cheap labor; that is, to pay lower wages than the national average for programming jobs.

According to “The Bottom of the Pay Scale: Wages for H-1B Computer Programmers — F.Y. 2004,” a report by Programmers Guild board member John Miano, non-U.S. citizens working in the United States on an H-1B visa are paid “significantly less than their American counterparts.” How much less? “On average, applications for H-1B workers in computer occupations were for wages $13,000 less than Americans in the same occupation and state.”

http://www.infoworld.com/article/05/10/25/44OPreality_1.html

 

Re: The H-1B swindle

I'm surprised no one is waging war against you now for posting this. Guess it's just me.

 

Re: Re: The H-1B swindle

Yeah, maybe it's just you

I never argued H1s don't get lower wages. I agrued the extent this fact has on the job market. Foreigners are not in competition with locals for most local jobs (see all "no visa sponsorship" lines in job ads). And they (we) affect wages much less than outsoursed labor would.

P. S. I'm also not fully trust the exact numbers in the article: Programmer's Guild is obviously extremely biased. But the gap exists, for sure.

 

Our IC seems to prefer F1 over J1 (less administrative overhead?). So it is up to the students who qualify to enquire about it.

Are J2s really pay no taxes? I was told otherwise, but will certainly check when (and if) my wife start working. That's cool!

 

Please read "no taxes" as "no SS taxes".

 

Re: Re: Re: The H-1B swindle

I definitely don't fully trust the numbers since the article doesn't mention controlling for experience (merely job title). Most H1-B applicants are relatively high-education, but low-experience workers. So it wouldn't surprise me if they earn significantly less than a high-experience alternative.

It's quite possible that the study did control for experience, but as far as I can tell, there's no indication of that in the editorial.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: The H-1B swindle

Exactly!