States that will or will not accept the California distance learning JD

PA terminology

Call it whatever. The fact remains that in California, the California Bar Association "seal of approval" is legally regarded as having the same professional value as the American Bar Association "seal of approval". If CBA approval is not "professional accreditation", then it's something that's exactly equivalent to professional accreditation -- except that it only works in one state, rather than nationally.
Under the circumstances, the term "state professional accreditation" (as opposed to "national professional accreditation") seems like the obvious choice of words. If you don't agree, then the burden is on you to come up with something better. Can you suggest alternative terminology that is simpler and less confusing?

 

Re: PA terminology

That's true in every state. The ABA says, "Look... here's how you should do it," and then the state's bar (or supreme court, or whomever regulates attorneys therein) turns around and does pretty much whatever it wants. California's not the only state with state-approved (but not ABA-approved), bar-qualifying JD programs. The salient benefit of the ABA's "seal of approval," as you put it, on a JD degree is its subsequent interstate transferability. No amount of stamping that California seal of approval on the California-accredited (but not ABA-approved) JD will give it the universal interstate transferability that ABA approval provides. So, in a sense, in terms of general regard, it's a bit more than just an in-state, California matter. That being the case, the California "seal of approval" does not have the same professional value as the ABA "seal of approval."

But that's a non-trivial distinction... one that's paradigmatic in scope and, therefore, renders the two incomparable... especially when viewed from the perspective of the national flavor of professional accreditation.

What could be simpler and less confusing than using the word "approved" instead of "accredited" at the state level; and reserving the word "accredited" for USDE- and/or CHEA-approved national agencies?

The use of the word "state" mitigates it, of course. But my sticking point was the use of the word "accreditation" by entities that are not USDE- and/or CHEA-approved. Were I a member of the US Congress, I'd have long ago introduced a bill making it a violation of federal law for any agency that is not USDE- and/or CHEA-approved to call itself an "accreditor" of educational institutions or programs. If so, then "professional accreditation" could, by definition, only come from a national body. States would be free to "approve" and try to convince those within them to ignore the elephant in the room that is the credential's lack of interstate transferability.

If CalBar wants to "approve" (rather than "accredit") its law schools and/or JD programs, then it would be perfectly acceptable to me... and it would, in that case, be using the very word ("approved" rather than "accredited") which the the ABA itself uses... which is weird, considering that the ABA, even in my paradigm, is allowed to use the word "accredited" rather than "approved." I repeat: Go figure.

[sarcasm]
Ah, yes... the 800-pound-gorilla theory of prevalence. One of my personal favorites...

...right alongside interpreting the golden rule as, "Them what gots the gold, rules."
[/sarcasm]

 

Re: PA terminology

I think the correct term is CA State Professional Approval.

CA State Approval once tried to claim that it was equivalent to accredited, and that didn't fly.
It appears that CalBar earned better recognition and approval.
Yet it is not accreditation by USDOE or CHEA recognized accreditor.
Maybe CA is planning to be more of the Nort American region
including Mexico etc then a republic of USA?

Learner

 

No, California as a separate country would rank higher than that. California has had a trillion-dollar state "GDP" for the past decade or so. There are only seven nations with trillion-dollar GDPs: US, Japan, Germany, UK, France, Italy, and China.

The California Dept. of Finance tracks California's position relative to national economies, since there is no real point in comparing it to other US states. The most recent ranking, based on 2003 data, put California in 7th place, between Italy and China. California was ranked in 5th place (ahead of Italy and France) in 2002, when the dollar was stronger.

 

Due only to physical size. Superimpose that geography on the East Coast and you begin to see the reality.

California in 12th in GSP per capita.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_state_product

 

Accreditation?

Here is an interesting citation to the California Professions and Occupations Code:

6060.9. Approval of any agency or agencies not existing under and
by virtue of the laws of this State shall not be made a condition for
accreditation of any California law school.

Now, this statute is to be read in the context of the California Bar's authority to "accredit" law schools.

Sooo...I think CalBar uses the term "accredit" because that's what the Legislature calls it. Furthermore, CalBar appears to be, not only entrusted with "accreditation" but REQUIRED to evaluate and accredit law schools.

The purpose of the statute is very clear, BTW; the California Legislature does not want the American Bar Association to exercise the kind of life-or-death control over California's system of legal education that the ABA exercises elsewhere in the country.

The statute could also be read as forbidding WASC from requiring ABA accreditation when WASC is deciding whether to extend regional accreditation. There are potentially some very good reasons for this.

The American Bar Association can, and has, held State Universities at gunpoint by using the threat of "disapproval" in order to compel States to upgrade physical facilities, expand law libraries, raise faculty salaries and extend tenure...

 

In my view the problem with California Bar accreditation is that the members of the Committee of Bar Examiners are all political appointees. All are honorable people and well respected attorneys but rarely, if ever, have any accreditation experience. Most, if not all, have never held a full-time teaching position - much less a school leadership position.

They serve a short term, two or three years, and move on. As such, the CBE has no long term accountability.

 

David Boyd

Ah!

The very man himself!

Do you happen to know off hand if any Taft grads are licensed in Colorado?

 

I don't believe that any Taft grads have applied in Colorado. I also believe that your initial analysis is correct - an application would not be looked upon favorably.

 

Sure, but size is the point. For example, no one would deny that the Boston-Washington corridor in the northeastern US is also an economic powerhouse, one that would easily match or exceed California. And there are probably other comparable subnational regions elsewhere in the world, like West Germany (the rich part of Germany), England (the rich part of the UK), or Honshu (the rich part of Japan).

But none of these other regions exist as distinct political entities, under a single executive and legislative body, as California does. The point is that Arnold Schwartzenegger and the California legislature deal with a far larger economy than any other state or provincial administrators anywhere in the world. No other single US state or foreign province comes close.

Many states have only one or two law schools total. It's not too surprising that law school regulations would be more complex in a state that has dozens.

 

Re: Re: PA terminology

OK. So let me rephrase things:

All RA law schools in California are approved either by the American Bar Association or the California Bar Association. ABA approval represents PA; CBA approval offers some, but not all, of the benefits of ABA PA.

Does that work for you?

 

Well, another possible reason for CalBar to use the term "accredited" is exactly because the ABA uses "approved" (at least officially).

CalBar is most concerned that no one mistake its "accredtation" with ABA "approval". To this end, CalBar REQUIRES every accredited law school to include a paragraph warning the potential student that "study at or graduation from this law school" may not qualify the student for admission to the bar of any state other than California.

 

Re: Re: Colorado won't accept D/L J.D. degrees?

Exactly how does one define "practicing"?

 

"Practicing"

As always, it depends on the state.

To qualify for the shorter "Attorney's Examination" in California, you need only present a certificate from your home state that shows that you have been an active member of the Bar for four years.

For admission on motion in Texas, they want to see your tax returns for the last five years to make sure that substantially all of your income came from the practice of law.

Most states list specific job titles or professional positions that constitute the "practice of law." Judge of a Court of record always counts, Judge of a lower court, like Magistrate or Justice of the Peace, might not.

Law clerk might count if the job requires an active law license.

 

Minnesota Bar excludes D/L J.D. grads

This is getting depressing.

Minnesota's admissions rules:

www.ble.state.mn.us/rules.html

are in general generous to a fault. Applicants with an ABA J.D. and five years of law practice experience during the previous seven years in any state can be admitted without taking the Bar exam even if their home state doesn't extend the same courtesy to Minnesota lawyers.

Attorney applicants who lack the five years of practice experience but earned a score of 145 or better on the Multistate Bar Exam can also be admitted without taking the Minnesota Bar exam.

BUT all applicants, whether by exam or on motion, whether experienced or inexperienced, MUST have a J.D. from an ABA approved law school. An LL.M. won't suffice.

This really doesn't make sense to me.

 

Of course, as someone who would like to see California DL JD holders able to sit for the bar in every state -- even if only after five years of California law practice in the ones that are dubious -- I am bothered by this... and by every other state that summarily rejects California DL JD holders.

However, the part of me that knows Minneapolis winters and, therefore, would never practice there to save my life says to himself, "Fine. Those who are anti-DL-JD can have Minnesota." When I read your post last night (but was too tired to reply), it was a typical -4°F in Minneapolis, with a wind chill of -19°F, and falling. At that very moment, it was an unseasonably cool 38°F in Napa... where people ask "what's wind chill?"

At that very moment, it was 23°F, with a windchill of 15°F, in Las Cruces... yes, I checked. That's a full 27°F warmer in actual degrees, and 34°F warmer in windchill factor degrees, than Minneapolis. And it's only December 5th... er... well... it's the 6th now, but it was the 5th in California when I looked-up those temperatures. My point is, it's not even winter yet... and look how cold it is in Minnesota already. Duluth, far to the north, was, remarkably, around the same temperature. But that won't last. As it gets further into December, January, and especially February, the disparity between Northern and Southern Minnesota temperatures will be far greater. Parts of Minnesota up near the boundary waters routinely log the nation's coldest temperatures -- colder, even, than many parts of Canada, most of the time. Minneapolis's only upside, weatherwise, as far as I'm concerned, is its inordinately high number of days-per-year of beautiful, clear, blue skies and bright sunshine.

I was in Minnesota for one of that state's coldest, most heavily-covered-in-snow winters a few years back. At its end, when its 90+ inches of snow, winterlong; and more-than-a-month's-worth of -20°F (or lower) days, winterlong, were tallied, even lifelong Minnesotans said, in effect, "check please," and sold their homes and headed for warmer climes. You know it's cold in a place when people think Chicago is more temperate and comfortable.

One -38°F Minneapolis morning that winter (actually, as I think about it, that morning, I was in neighboring in St. Paul... which, as cities go, I actually like quite a bit, if it weren't so damned cold) I went out to the Chevy Astro utility van that I had left over from headier days when my business owned a whole fleet of them (and this one I kept for hauling stuff around when I needed it), and when I tried to start it the cold snapped one of the bolts that was holding the starter in place. Less than a month later, me, the van, my Volvo, and my motorcycle, were in Tampa... never to return except for extreme business reasons.

Yes, the anti-DL-JDers can have Minnesota. If conceding it, and the Dakotas, would be adequate sacrifice to the anti-DL-JDer gods and would, therefore, cause the other 47 states to all accept DL-JDs, then I'd happily make the trade.

I'd cede Wisconsin, too, except most of its being ever-so-slightly further south; and its proximity to the Great Lakes, makes it so that it's actually a tad warmer, for the most part. And it's a beautiful state, too... with opportunities to own waterfront property on both its East (the Great Lakes) and West (the Mississippi River) borders. Plus -- and for purposes of this thread, this is its most salient feature -- Wisconsin will permit California DL JD holders to sit for its bar exam. All it requires of any bar exam taker whose JD isn't ABA-approved is that s/he be a member in good standing of any other state's bar. So, theoretically, someone wishing to practice law in Wisconsin could get a California DL JD, sit for California's bar, get admitted to the California bar, and then immediately go apply to take Wisconsin's bar... even without having practiced for a few years in California.

HELPFUL HINT-O-TH'-DAY: Never live anywhere where longtime residents state a typical spring or autumn day's temperature as "65 above" (meaning +65°F... above zero, as opposed to below it) in order to avoid confusion since said people live in a place where the opposite (-65°F) is entirely possible. Just a word to the wise.

 

Winter builds CHARACTOR, at least according to Garrison Keeler.

What makes Northern Minnesota so much COLDER than large parts of Canada? Or even, so I've heard, North Dakota?

Brrrr.

Actually, though, I don't think it gets THAT much colder than parts of Eastern Washington...Downtown merchants in Spokane, the largest city in the Inland Empire, built enclosed "flyways", pedestrian walkways, between their department stores to spare shoppers from having to brave the cold.

Now, I am from Olympia, in Western Washington, where a typical wintertime high is 40 degrees F. (ABOVE zero, it goes without saying.)

Maybe THAT'S why I have no discernable charactor!

 

Ah, yes... Lake Wobegon... where the women are strong and the men are good-looking. 'Nuff said!

It's part, I was told, of the same convergence of thermal somethingorothers there that also gives the state so many sunny days. Some really cold air from the North comes swooping down and meets some other kinda' air, and they dance around and do whatever else... and the result is this funny little area at Minnesota's extreme Northern border that's just cold as ever-loving hell... even when places further North aren't; and also causes most of the clouds in the entire state to just kinda' move off and to the East and Southeast, leaving beautiful, sunny, blue skies. You know it's cold when even the sun falling on the cheek exposed to it doesn't seem to warm it. My Napa cat demands to go outside at 7:00 AM (or thereabouts), when the temperatures are just beginning to rise from the night's low (lately, as low as the unseasonably low of 29°F) and she's happy because she can get up on the roof of the utility shed in the back yard and bask in the morning sun. That doesn't work in Minnesota most of the winter.

Do that outdoors past around January 1st in Minnesota and whatever spittle escapes your vibrating lips will just about feeze in mid-air and crash to the ground as ice. I'm not kidding.

Minneapolis invented such flyways. They're all over the place... and in other Minnesota cities, as well... especially to the North. There, it's an amazing cooperation between building owners. One can take a flyway from one building to another across the street, and they usually aren't both owned by the same entity. I always found that interesting. And I always wondered: So, then do the janitors from each building just clean out to the exact halfway point of the flyway, over the center of the street below?

I got all the character I could stand living in or near Chicago. People wonder why there are railings that people can hang onto on the outside of buildings, on the sidewalk areas. If they hang around for the winter, they find out. Couple a Chicago winter wind with a near-Minneapolis temperature (Chicago's only 400 miles South-Southeast of Minneapolis and tends to get its typically only a few degrees warmer temperatures), and you get slapstick-style entertainment watching people hold onto the buildings for dear life trying to walk down the sidewalk... and wishing they'd never been born. Four decades of that was about all the character-building I could stomach.

Thankgod proximity-inflicted character is like a tattoo that doesn't go away even if the tattooed does... or so it is my fervent hope.

 

MARS has a better climate!

Quick comparason; At the moment, Minneapolis is 6 degrees whilst Spokane is a balmy 18 degrees. Shirtsleeves, I'm sure!

Here in Las Cruces, I think that today's high was 67 degrees...

I don't think I'm gonna be picking up that Minnesota law license any time soon, admission on motion or NO admission on motion!

(What do Minnesotans do when all the carbon dioxide condenses out of the atmosphere? All their plants must die!)

 

Maybe it's the cold; North Dakota Bar also excludes D/L J.D.s

Well, the highly prestigious Bar of North Dakota offers admission on motion, on test scores from other jurisdictions, or via bar examination, but in all cases, its Rule 1 says that ALL applicants must have a J.D. degree from a law school either approved or provisionally approved, by the American Bar Association.

www.ndcourts.com/rules/admission/frameset.htm