Send your kids to the wrong school...go to jail

Do you think she would have tried to put her children in that school if it had been a POOR white school? Of course not. She tried to sneak her children into that school district for the EXACT same reasons why white families try to sneak their children in to predominately white New Trier high school in the Chicago suburbs, or why black families try to sneak their kids into predominately black Morgan Park High School in Chicago, or why many white families in Chicago don't send their kids to predominately white public schools, but instead send them to Catholic schools. They are better schools with more resources. It is not like this woman said "Oh, look at all of the pretty white people, this school must be the best." The fact is the school IS one of the best in the area, even among other white schools.

Firstly, in terms of education and performance, looking at African-Americans as a single culture is extremely myopic. Do you think that a black kid with a physician father and a college professor mother has more in common culturally with the black gangster or crackhead you arrested last month, or with a white kid with a physician father and college professor mother?

There are a ton of variables that go into success or failure academically amongst African-Americans. Chucking it all off to "shitty culture" just illustrates ignorance of the issue. As a police officer, you are probably exposed to the absolute WORST segment of "black culture". I suspect that it has adversely affected your perceptions.

I went to an elite private prep school that was predominately white. We had maybe 20 black students out of a graduating class of ~240. If anything, my bet is that there was a HIGHER instance of black students going to top universities than the white majority. My prom date went to Harvard for undergrad and Johns Hopkins for med school. One of my closest friends went to UPenn along with another black student form our class. Another black student went to Brown, another to Columbia, Another to Stanford, another to Georgia Tech for Engineering, another went to Johns Hopkins for undergrad, another went to Washington University, another to UVA for undergrad and Law.

Those are just the ones I remember off the top of my head. Heck, I was probably the big underachiever of the group because I started at a small state university before transferring to Georgetown. I'm sure someone from that class went to Northwestern (someone always did), but I don't remember who. In effect, you have 50% of my school's black population going to the top 0.5% of the schools of higher education in this country. Not bad for folks raised in a "shitty culture."

I point this out, not just to brag about how great the black students in my high school were. I did it to illustrate that in terms of academic achievement, once you start over-generalizing "black culture" and lumping an entire race of almost 40 million people into one group, you pretty much destroy any possibility of coming to any meaningful/useful conclusions. The better question to ask is why do some groups of blacks do so much better than others. Looking at the differences between those groups would be much more useful than chucking it off to "shitty culture."

I read the article. It had a lot of insights covered in a lot of bullshit. Having started out in an all black middle/working class Catholic elementary school, and going to elite Catholic high school and university, as well as seeing other black students who had much more, or much less success than I did, IMHO the article misses some important points.

 

Yes the culture or %90 of is shitty. Values are placed on the wrong things. Poverty is no excuse for being uneducated and doing poorly in school. I was poor as crap growing up and I've done well for myself and family. I went to Houston ISD and there was only a few white students in my grade and school. We were poor as crap but guess what, I was in charge or every school play and club, I was the only freakin person their to do it. I know the culture and it sucks. I have worked as a police officer and think it sucks from my experience, prison is to be expected.

By culture I do not mean RACE. But values.

 

The problem with your statement is that 90% of blacks aren't poor. 90% of blacks aren't in jail. 90% of blacks aren't on welfare. In my family, I am at risk of being demoted down to the kiddy table for thanksgiving if I don't hurry up and pick up my master's degree (EVERYONE else in the generation above me has a graduate degree).

That's the problem. You don't know black culture. At best you may have knowledge of POOR black culture. Trust me when I tell you that you cannot conceive of the gigantic difference between poor black culture and middle class black culture, let alone upper-middle class black culture. You just have no concept of it.

In fact, I'll bet hard money that you probably had more exposure to poor black culture in your elementary and high school experience than I have had, or will ever have, in my whole life, and I am black. However, to extrapolate your experience with poor blacks to African-Americans in general is preposterous.

Lets take your "prison is to be expected" comment. I am sure that in the neighborhoods you work in with the characters your deal with this is true. Why? Because your dealing with a bunch of poor criminals in poor neighborhoods. How many black doctors, lawyers, and college professors randomly stop you when you are on patrol, or stop by the station to say "Hey, I just wanted to say that things are going great and I don't need anything"?

It reminds me of something my buddy told me. He is a paramedic with the Chicago Fire Department in a rough area. They are always going out on calls in their area for shootings, stabbings, and overdoses. They get this one call regarding an elderly woman having some kind of medical issue in a part of their assigned that they aren't familiar with. When they reach the block, the lawns on all of the houses are mowed and the houses are well maintained. When they go into the house, it is beautiful inside and obviously well cared for. My buddy commented to the senior medic there about how he takes calls just 4 blocks away all the time and he didn't know this little area existed. The senior medic responded "That's because they never call us here, so we never have a reason to be here."

On my end, I've never been associated with an environment where "prison is to be expected." In my 34 years of life I have known maybe 4 or 5 black people that had been or eventually went to prison. By know, I don't mean they were friends, I mean that they were enough of an acquaintance that I remember their name. I actually just did a tally and I know 10 TIMES as many blacks with doctorates as have been to prison.

Here is the thing. Neither one of our experiences encompasses the black community. We each have only been exposed to a small segment of it.

The problem is that you are attributing those values to an entire race, and those 90% shitty values just don't apply to the whole group. The fact is that the majority of blacks have never been to prison and have never been on welfare.

I do a lot of work in Costa Rica. As a result, I know a lot of expats and frequent "recreational" travelers down there. Most of the local women that hang around the American expat locations are prostitutes, and most of the local women these expats and frequent travelers socialize with are prostitutes. As a result, MANY gringos down their believe, and attempt to make compelling arguments, that most women in Costa Rica are, or at one time have been, prostitutes. I know it sounds insane, but many of these guys believe it, and they have their personal experience to back it up. Is it true? Of course not. simply looking at the numbers would disprove it. But these guys believe what they believe. They have been continually exposed to one type of Tica (Costa Rican woman) and have generalized that experience to all Ticas.

I think this is the root of why you reject (and are probably offended by) the poverty argument. You grew up poor and you made it. So, in your mind, poverty can't be the issue. In your mind, the only thing that separated you and them is different cultures (black and white), so that MUST be the issue. To lay it all on poverty would be an insult to you and your family.

Conversely, I am black, and was raised in a black family and experienced my version of black culture, and I "made it", and so did almost all of my friends. So, I know it can't be some universal "shitty black culture/values." "Shitty culture" doesn't explain why so many of my black friends went to Ivy league schools, and are successful professionals today. When I see the problems in the "black community" I see a lot of problems with poor blacks, so poverty MUST be the issue. To lay it all on black culture/values would be an insult to me and my family.

 

I'm speechless. You seem to suggest there is something innate in black people that prevents them from learning.

 

I'm going to largely ignore the race conversation going on here, because I believe it is irrelevant to the topic.

Why not? Might we be unduly influenced by compassion? We can't have that now, can we?

Unless the ordinance in question is unjust. Are we obligated to follow the law of the land, even in situations where the law is self-evidently wrong? Or, are we obligated to break them? I know where I stand.

Ever? Or just in this scenario because you happen to be in a position that is palatable because you benefit from the law as it stands?

Really now, b4, we live in Texas. Our taxes are fine. We need to stop worrying that our property rolls might go up by $100 next year so that new schools could be built. I would think that you, of all people, would see the necessity in doing everything possible to mitigate the social problems that lead to anti-social behavior. Education is one of the most basic and influential social phenomena that can lower crime and increase quality of life for the collective. I'm certainly not going to begrudge someone for attempting to provide the best for hers.

b4cz28, I have the utmost respect for you, both because of what you do every day and for your valuable contributions on these boards. But, I have to say that I disagree with everything you have said in this conversation. I know that you are exposed on a daily basis to the worst that society has to offer, and this can change a person's outlook. I certainly don't know all of the details of this case, and never will. It comes down to a basic tenet of life: if a thing is inclusive, then it is generally right; if it is exclusive or divisive, it is generally wrong. The policies that made it possible to prosecute this woman are myopic, bigoted, and wrong. I don't know all of the answers. I don't know how to fix everything in the education system. But what I do know is this: a woman who was attempting to provide a high level of education for her children now has a felony conviction on her criminal record. Regardless of the outcome of her appeal, and regardless of any judge's recommendation, here is what she has to look forward to: a lifetime of punishment. The NCIC does not forget convictions. Period. She will be weeded out on every job application she submits for the rest of her life. She will (likely) be denied her teaching credential, and has thus wasted years of her life and who knows how many dollars towards an education that is now completely worthless to her. She is now relegated, for the rest of her life, to second-class status.

If you think she was a menace to our social system before, just think of what she will be now that we have essentially jailed her into a life of poverty and welfare dependence.

The punishment does not fit the crime. And the crime is only outside of the law because of divisive policies that, like it or not, will eventually crumble. I applaud her, and my heart breaks for her. The roof is on fire. We don't need no water.

 

After reading a lot of comments here I have to say yall have changed my mind, which is not always easy to do.
I might have a bit of a skewed opinion on this matter......
1. I grew up in the heights
2. I worked in a crappy part of town (projects)

I'm just basing my experience on the poorer population of blacks I have encountered. I'm not a racist, my problem is with a culture that I think is killing the black race. My mother is in fact Dominican, believe it or not, she was a mulato.
I think everyone for some good points on this, now I'm not sure what to think. Yall need to stop being so logical damn it!

 

Kudos to you for having an open mind. I can't imagine the atrocities that you have seen, and I'm sure it's not always easy to keep faith in humanity given those experiences.

I'm not sure what to think either. But I think it is our recognition of our room to grow and open-minded approach to life that will allow us as humans to become more humane to one another.

Those who I admire most are those who self-proclaimedly know nothing.

Be safe out there b4. :cop:

 

It is totally understandable. In fact, I have seen the EXACT SAME cultural traits that you mentioned seeing when I have interacted with youth in the low income areas.

For instance, you mentioned the mentality of prison being expected. During my summer between high school and college, I worked for my aunt's law firm (strictly civil law, no criminal). On one occasion I had to go to one of the court houses for some documentation. I passed by the juvenile criminal court area and the kids were laughing and joking around like they were at recess. The age range was maybe 12-16 years old. Here these kids were obviously there for a court date and they are acting like it was no big deal and having fun with it. It completely freaked me out how casual they were about it.

Part of the reason you might not see anyone in the projects you work in doing well is because the number one strategy for anyone in that area trying to improve themselves is to work as hard as possible and move out as soon as possible to a better neighborhood.

The only downside to the strategy is that it leaves no role models for the current residents. They don't believe that education and hard work pays off, because they don't see it paying off for anyone around them? Why? Because as soon as it starts to pay off, those folks move out of the area.

It is the same with the schools. In Chicago, with the exception of the magnet schools, the general consensus is that the public school system sucks. Why aren't some of the better parents, who are dedicated to giving their child the best opportunities, getting more involved with the school? Because for a parent who is that dedicated, it is much simpler and has a much higher chance of success, if they bust their butt to pay for private school or get their kid into one of the magnet schools.

To this day, there is still controversy surrounding magnet schools, with some arguing that by pulling the best and brightest from regular schools it removes the best positive role models for the average students left behind. That may or may not be true, but I know that if I had a choice between sending my son or daughter to a magnet school or leaving her in some school in the ghetto so she can be a role model for others, my kid is going to the magnet school. I refuse to risk my child's future on the hopes that some other kids, who aren't my blood, might benefit.

 

When I was graduating Jr. High, I wanted to go to a high school that offered Air Force Jr. ROTC. The high school in my school district didn't have one, but there was one in another. That high school was predominately black.

My counselor at Jr. High help me apply for a wavier based on "racial inequity". If you were black and the school was predominantly white, you get a wavier to go to that school on grounds of segregation. In my case it was vice-versa. All I did was fill out a form, and have it signed by my parents and the principal. That simple.

I find it hard to believe that the school district in Ohio didn't offer a similar wavier.

Of course, going to a school out of district meant I couldn't ride the bus, and my parents had to get me my own car if they didn't want to drive me everyday. BONUS! :headbang:

 

What she gets from me is respect. For centuries we educated people without the <cough> benefit of public education. Of course it's about money, and jaer57 is right- the district is pissed that they lost their $. It's hard not to bring up homeschooling, but if homeschooling were illegal again, I'd be jailed....course I have more money so I'm harder to catch. Three cheers for public education. I'm glad this ugliness made the news.

 

...and I forgot to add, that while everyone debates the issue of culture, race, and socioeconomic inequity- her child is growing up. There is no pause button in life, this mom is taking care of what's important today. She was willing to go to jail, it's that important to her.
This is, of course, a problem with compulsory education and the assignment of resources.

 

Your exuberance belies your claim. :laugh:

 

It appears the Governor of Ohio is going to review the case:

Gov. Kasich orders review of Copley school residency case

 

THis woman broke the law, she was offered three options to resolve the issue without being prosecuted and refused. If I were a tax payer in that district I would be pissed. They don't pay taxes to educate kids from other districts.
I applaud the woman for trying to improve her life and the life of her children, but her stubborness and unwillingness to admit she was in the wrong is what got her in trouble.