SCUPS Degrees/Units Now Transferable to NCU

You hit the nail on the head. SCUPS is used for licensure in a couple of states, which does lend it some credability, even though SCUPS is not RA. State recoginition of SCUPS for licensure purposes cannot be overlooked and it is quite remarkable that SCUPS degrees are being used for professional positions in a couple of states.

Is NCU pretty much the same as other online universities or is there a qualitative difference? I would venture to say that most online universities are going to be similar to each other in quality because most of them have similar entrance requirements. Are DL RA doctorates less rigorious then B&M doctorates??? Most of our observations would be anecdotal and since I don't have a doctorate, I'm not qualified to answer that question. And what makes a B&M doctorate more rigorious than a RA DL doctorate:

• (a) the entry-level requirements that weed out many ill suited applicants (such as the GRE requirement)
• (b) or the actual coursework and dissertation
• (c) or a combination of both (a) and (b)?

Most B&M schools would choose answer (c). And in reference to answer (a), that is highly controversial. Is a high GRE score an indicator of future performance and, if so, in what percentage of the time? A GRE does not measure student tenacity.

 

Not to be contrary, but that argument seems flawed. It's a bit like saying cats and dogs must be of the same species because both are commonly kept as household pets. Entrance requirements alone, even liberal ones, are not reliable indicators of educational quality.

Kit

 

True. My observation is purely anecdotal.

 

For one thing, NCU is accredited by Northcentral(HLC) and not by MSA. MSA accredits mostly Eastern schools. I am not sure that NCU was ever in the East.

Was the sale of SCUPS the condition that NCU had to abide by in order to gain accreditation? I had not heard this before, actually. I would be grateful for a reference on this, please. I was thinking that the sale of SCUPS had been a recent undertaking and that they had been accredited well before that.

To me, I am not sure why NCU has such a close relationship to SCUPS now. Rather than divesting themselves of SCUPS altogether they appear to be tightening the bond with this recent announcement. I am not too worried about it to tell you the truth. Even if one is admitted to the NCU PhD program the requirement is still 51 credits of NCU coursework. That doesn't change whether one comes in from Harvard or SCUPS. I don't see that they are breaking any accreditation rules by allowing SCUPS credits.

BTW, you mention that CSU does not offer doctorates. This is changing very shortly. They are going to be offering the DBA early next year from what I know...along with other DETC schools.

 

PHD2B already made comment on the forum about the comparison of NCU to another PhD, brick and mortar, he was engaged in. Very similar work. True enough, the entrance requirements are a major difference between a brick and mortar and a DL school. I can give my own accounting. Having taking a class in a PhD program at a top ranked brick and mortar myself, I can say that the coursework is not much different. Admissions certainly was.

I can compare my NCU course with a similar course from the brick and mortar PhD program(an executive PhD program) at a nearby, and well respected, university...as an associate of mine is doing that doctorate. Same amount of work, same sort of class, same sort of feedback from the professor, etc. Again, the admission standards were different.

We can only go by what we see. NCU PhD dissertations are available to make comparisons. Are they as good as brick and mortar type dissertations? I don't know. Are they as good as Touro, Walden, or Capella dissertations? I don't know that either. We have seen from tesch's research that past NCU dissertations were sometimes shorter than comparative brick and mortar dissertations. I don't know what the disserations look like now that NCU has seen the accreditation day. I am to understand that there is more rigor around their current dissertation process.

Do I think that I am going to a "Harvard" by taking the NCU PhD? Nope. I feel I know my bounds with such a degree. Can I teach at a university one day with an NCU PhD? I don't plan to but it looks like one can. Of recent note is this gentleman...See Dan Yates. He jumped from being an adjunct(at other schools), and an accountant, to being an assistant professor at Findlay. There are other examples like him, too. This is just the most recent I found... http://www.findlay.edu/events/releases/default.asp?Action=ReadHeadline&RowID=751

 

Um...NCU is regionally accredited...does it really NEED "defending"?

SCUPS isn't a mill. That's pretty plain. But isn't that damning with faint praise? If a potential SCUPS student in psychology or business really wants a D/L doctorate, why not bite the financial bullet and just GO WITH NCU?

 

NOSBORNE: Um...NCU is regionally accredited...does it really NEED "defending"?

SIMON: Absolutely not. However, does it really NEED constant attacking and attempts to undermine from certain posters without an objective and impartial attempt to explore and compare NCU's practices with other for-profit online universities?

NOSBORNE: SCUPS isn't a mill. That's pretty plain. But isn't that damning with faint praise? If a potential SCUPS student in psychology or business really wants a D/L doctorate, why not bite the financial bullet and just GO WITH NCU? [/B][/QUOTE]

SIMON: A saving of $260 a credit at SCUPS ( SCUPS tuition is $210 a credit: NCU's tuition is $475 a credit), amounting to $780 a course is a significant amount of money especially if one is considering completing a number of courses. Therefore it is totaly understandable why one would opt to complete as many courses at SCUPS to transfer to NCU.

 

Profit! Plain and simple

Why would NCU accept or affiliate with SCUPS? Simple, profit. DL is becoming a very competive business. If you look at NCU, they are aggressively seeking out affiliations with community colleges, state collegges and even SCUPS. Each affiliation is a feeder for additional students. If they can align with the SCUPS, and not lose or jepordize their RA status, then for business reasons they will continue.

I don't think that anyone is going to confuse NCU with Harvard or Yale in terms of utility, thus the joint venture with SCUPS has a low downside to NCU. Many corporations are joint venturing as a way to lower costs, increase profit and strengthen market position.

 

This has been said before and is worth repeating: It is good that NCU doesn't advertise like UoP. IMO UoP has developed an unfavorable rap due to their money making marketing strategy of advertising. If NCU ever chooses to walk down that same path, then they will experience a similar stigma.

My .02

 

Listen to yourself, man: University of Phoenix has developed an unfavorable "rap?" due to their money-making marketing strategy of advertising?

Let's see here. Following this through, let's see where this leads.

I've decided that I'd like to create Ted Heiks University. But I don't want to dirty myself by doing something so horrid as actually making money, especially if I'd lose prestige by so doing. So, I'm not going to tell anyone my school exists. Therefore I'd be a much more prestigious school than UOP.

Do you begin to see the flaw in this way of thinking?

A university that aims to remain the best-kept secret in all of academia by doing no marketing gets few if any students, takes in little or no money, finds itself unable to pay its bills, and goes out of business.

Academicians' knee-jerk left-wing liberal tendencies aside, ever since the 7th century BC, when the Phoenicians invented money, there has been but one way to grease economic transactions. Anyone who allows others to use their labor, land, capital, or entrepreneurial skills deserves to be compensated in wages, rents, interest, or profits. So, if a university offers you the possibility of getting an education or a degree or both, why would you resent the university's owners making a profit? Especially when you yourself would almost assuredly demand your wages if you were a professor?

 

If UoP has such a bad rap, why are they so bloody successful? Thier recruiting practices might give thier accreditor fits but thier bottom line must make their stockholders dance, dance, dance!
As more and more DL students move up the corporate ranks any stigma attached to UoP will dissipate. As for any academic stigma, it might be legitimate concerns about program rigor, or it might be sour grapes caused by UoP eating up marketshare that was targeted by more traditional school programs. I dunno.

 

Of couse, I meant to say North Central (NCA) versus MSA... at little tired while writing.

However, I still maintain what I state in my previous posts...

"North Central is simply an RA end-a-round and borrowed legitimacy for SCUPS which by design has turned out to be an unaccredited feeder system for North Central. Additionally, SCUPS can now market its unaccredited degree programs as quasi accredited because of its common association/infrastructure with North Central and direct porting of degrees. "

and

"Why oh why didn't (won't) SCUPS just go direct to Middle States or WASC for accreditation? Perhaps they couldn't (can't), and that basically says it all."

and

"The SCUPS/NCU relationship (IMHO) appears to be more about crafty business and benefiting shareholder interest than advancing education."

 

Bing,

Of course, I meant to say North Central (NCA) versus MSA... a little tired while writing.

However, I still maintain what I stated in my previous posts...

"North Central is simply an RA end-a-round and borrowed legitimacy for SCUPS which by design has turned out to be an unaccredited feeder system for North Central. Additionally, SCUPS can now market its unaccredited degree programs as quasi accredited because of its common association/infrastructure with North Central and direct porting of degrees. "

and

"Why oh why didn't (won't) SCUPS just go direct to NCA or WASC for accreditation? Perhaps they couldn't (can't), and that basically says it all."

and

"The SCUPS/NCU relationship (IMHO) appears to be more about crafty business and benefiting shareholder interest than advancing education."

Finally, the DETC may authorize several of its accredited schools to offer doctoral level degrees. However, the DETC also denied SCUPS accreditation.

If SCUPS has the substance to obtain RA, DETC or any other legitimate form of recognized accreditation, then they should do just it... end of report. Anything less is just an SCUPS/NCU end-a-round and shared accreditation benefit game.

Tom

 

Tesch,

You said that the sale of SCUPS was a condition of RA for NCU, though. I am still particularly interested in your reference for that. Please provide one if you can.

Maybe SCUPS is trying to get more braun behind another DETC go at it. They advertised this goal when they were looking for a new CEO. They wanted him to take them to accreditation. They advertised it as such anyway.

Regardless of your opinion, NCU is still RA and not likely changing because of the SCUPS relationship. Although, your comment about crafty business is interesting. I can say the same thing about Purdue and Indiana University...it's said all the time around here(where I live), too. They could care less about advancing education and they are more interested in building mega industrial parks, forging deals with companies and government, building startup companies(taking a nice share of them, too), and bringing in foreign students.

If I didn't personally know the guy who IUPUI hired in as a Director of their joint operation task force then I might think differently. He's BUSINESS all the way...and that is his only job...business. He was an educator at one point but since he used to be a CIO in a major company they leveraged that and made him a "bidness man" rather than an educator.

The thought that non-profit brick and mortar based colleges and universities are these "do good for humanity" selfless type institutions is endearing but not quite reality. It's business all the way. Education is big business no matter if it is DL or B&M based. Education is a sideline to them.

 

You have non-profit APA schools like Fielding and CIIS. You also have RA DL schools like Union, Saybrook, Capella, Walden and NCU. Am I missing any? Interestingly, the non-profit and for-profit ALL appear to have similar admission standards. Why is this? I also remember non-profit Touro University for having lax standards as well for their programs (none in psychology).

Quality is subjective here. Psychology programs at B&M universities have been critisized for being too research oriented. Many students prefer the more practical degree with professors with real work experience, and it is not rare to see many of them graduate with more sound clinical skills than those from more traditional doctoral programs. And online doctoral programs that have the APA brand are also very rigurous and time consuming. Brick and mortar programs in psychology programs are fine and great if you want to teach at major schools and do extensive research.

Where exactly? which school? Like I said already, there are very few online schools with doctoral studies in psychology, so if its not NCU (which I think it is) then which other school are you talking about? Walden? Capella? Saybrook? Fielding? Why so secretive?

Most online doctoral students are in the ages of 40-50, come with masters from RA B&M universities and write fairly well. Typically, these students work full time jobs and prefer the convenience of distance learning. Not the typical B&M student.

If they are some who can't spell, then one has to wonder who was passing them at their B&M schools (where most come from).
But anyways, you care to share which school you got these observations?

Its a fact that NCU can allow the transfer of almost all credits from SCUPS. Its not a fact that this happens with the same degree at other online/dl schools. Other online schools will allow state approved credits on a case by case basis. I've seen Nova accept state approved credits for their business programs but I've never seen a case where they allow the transfer of ALL doctoral pre-dissertation credits from a state approved school. If I'm wrong then provide factual data.

 

Roman: Psychology programs at B&M universities have been critisized for being too research oriented.

SIMON: You are confusing the facts. There has not been criticism leveled at B & M universities "for being too research oriented". In fact research in psychology as in other social sciences is the foundation for developing evidence based clinical practice as well as for exploring other topics relevant to specializations within the psychology domain such as experimental, personality, industrial/organizational, academic, school as well as others. Without substantive research a profession such as psychology loses the very underpinnings that supports its existence as a social science.

Roman: Many students prefer the more practical degree with professors with real work experience, and it is not rare to seemany of them graduate with more sound clinical skills than those from more traditional doctoral programs.

SIMON: Yes, there are many students who prefer a Psy.D rather than a Ph.D due to its orientation towards clinical practice. However, you are incorrect when you state that they "graduate with more sound clinical skills than those from more traditional programs". In fact, some do and some don't. There are many excellent clinicians with a Ph.D who are equally competent clinically or even surpass the level of clinical competency of those with a Psy. D.

ROMAN: And online doctoral programs that have the APA brand are also very rigurous and time consuming.

SIMON: Yes, so what is your point?

ROMAN: Brick and mortar programs in psychology programs are fine and great if you want to teach at major schools and do extensive research.

SIMON: Once again you are confusing the facts and making inaccurate statements and gross generalizations. First of all brick and mortar schools do not only offer doctoral programs that are oriented towards teaching and performing "extensive research" but also offer the Psy.D which is clinically oriented. In addition a number of traditional doctoral programs in clinical, counseling and school psychology combine rigorous research with rigorous clinical training as well.

Secondly, "brick and mortar" schools are the largest producers of graduates who are oriented towards clinical practice. Yes, those who are interested in teaching within academia have more opportunities graduating from a research oriented doctoral program in psychology. However this is a career preference that resulted in their selecting such a graduate program rather than one that is clinically oriented.

ROMAN: Where exactly? which school? Like I said already, there are very few online schools with doctoral studies in psychology, so if its not NCU (which I think it is) then which other school are you talking about? Walden? Capella? Saybrook? Fielding? Why so secretive?

SIMON: You have already made up your mind as stated above that I am attending NCU. There is no need for me to prove otherwise.

ROMAN:Most online doctoral students are in the ages of 40-50, come with masters from RA B&M universities and write fairly well.

SIMON: Boy do you generalize. Present your evidence that "most" online doctoral students" "write fairly well"? Are you currently attending a doctoral program and from your anecdotal experiences have found this to be the case ? Unfortunately from my anecdotal experiences I have not.

In fact, due to the open door admission policies of many online doctoral programs a significant number of students, many with grade inflated undergraduate and masters degrees are being admitted with questionable verbal and mathematical academic competencies. BTW, this unfortunate situation has also occurred in traditional brick and mortar doctoral programs as well. In politically correct academia as well as due to anxiety on the part of many teaching faculty that if they fail such students they will not provide them with favorable evaluations therby affecting their teaching ratings and tenure, it is rare or difficult for such students to be removed from their studies.

ROMAN: Typically, these students work full time jobs and prefer the convenience of distance learning. Not the typical B&M student.

If they are some who can't spell, then one has to wonder who was passing them at their B&M schools (where most come from).
But anyways, you care to share which school you got these observations?

SIMON: For many years, the news media has presented their observations that many universities, including Ivy League, have engaged in "grade inflation" that has resulted in many students graduating from their respective programs with questionable academic skills and competencies. This is not a guarded secret but a well know fact. Furthermore as noted in Business Week several weeks ago, some highly regarded business schools are graduating MBAs without any grades at all ! This was due to many students protests that if they recieved poor grades it would lower their grade point averages and that this would adversely affect their opportunities to compete for jobs with graduates with more successful academic performance. Unfortunately, a number of job recruiters have noted that the analytical skills of many of these graduates was very poor and not sufficient to meet the needs for the positions they were seeking within corporate America. These findings necesssitated these business schools to revert to their previous policy of having students receive grades based on their level of academic performance.

ROMAN: Its a fact that NCU can allow the transfer of almost all credits from SCUPS.

SIMON: One again you are incorrect. NCU does not "allow the trasfer of almost all credits from SCUPS". NCU allows ONLY up to thirty credits to be transferred into their graduate programs from SCUPS. This is the same amount that they will allowed to be transferred from other RA universities.

ROMAN:Its not a fact that this happens with the same degree at other online/dl schools.

SIMON: What is the source of your statement above?

ROMAN: I've seen Nova accept state approved credits for their business programs but I've never seen a case where they allow the transfer of ALL doctoral pre-dissertation credits from a state approved school. If I'm wrong then provide factual data.

SIMON: You are wrong. In fact, NCU does not accept ALL doctoral pre-dissertation credits from a state approved school but limits transfer to thirty graduate credits leaving approximately fifty one to complete to obtain the doctorate.