Rushmore MBA

Sorry if disagreeing is "twisting." But you indeed "framed the Rushmore’s new strategy as an excuse for not seeking accreditation." You speficially said: "In recent discussions with Dr. Cox, he stated that plans for seeking accreditation had been placed on the backburner in favor of marketing the program directly to corporations. " That's pretty plain.

I said the pursuit of one shouldn't stop the pursuit of the other. Trying to build customized MBA programs by partnering with corporations shouldn't have anything to do with the pursuit of legitimate accreditation. It is a weak excuse.

Rushmore isn't new. You cite the University of Phoenix example for some reason. Well, Phoenix was a candidate for accreditation when they opened their doors. Rushmore has been around for seven years without even a pass at accreditation. Now they say they're going to put it off longer. Phoenix was a brick-and-mortar school long before it offered distance degrees. Rushmore has always offered DL-only degrees. Phoenix has always had legitimate and recognized accreditation (or candidacy). Rushmore has been "located" in at least three jurisdictions and has claimed fake accreditation for a long time. There is no comparison.

The Arizona Board of Regents called University of Phoenix a diploma mill. That was while Phoenix was a candidate for accreditation. Who looks dumb in that exchange? However, who would argue (besides Rushmore's staff, faculty, and students) if the same term was applied to Rushmore? What about Rushmore belies that appellation?

I'll look forward to hearing about the corporations that choose to partner with Rushmore.

"I simply believe that, in time unique programs like Rushmore’s will gain wider acceptance (I’m talking format not schools here)."

Um, fine. But I didn't criticize Rushmore's educational methodologies. Others have, but not me. Rushmore has had 7 years to be something more than an unaccredited, vagabond operation that boasts bogus accreditation. (At least it stopped doing the last one.)

NB: I've discussed my professional and educational backround at great length on this board over the years. Not very exciting stuff. I'm sure a search would turn up the details.

 

>"I said the pursuit of one shouldn't stop the pursuit of the other. Trying to build customized MBA programs by partnering with corporations shouldn't have anything to do with the pursuit of legitimate accreditation. It is a weak excuse"

I agree. I also pointed out that the research based approach could not be accredited in its current form (again, as far as I know). I don’t think it’s an excuse but we’re probably arguing semantics.

I pointed to the University of Phoenix example only to demonstrate that there are established programs that have faced opposition.

 

Oops. I just realized that I cited the Business 2.0 article, but didn’t provide the ref.
http://www.business2.com/articles/mag/0,1640,41346,00.html

There’s also a good article in the post discussing the research by Pfeffer (Stanford MBA business professor) Pheffer argues that the economic value of a business degree from anywhere other than a top tier school is “quite limited.”
http://www.nationalpost.com/search/site/story.asp?id=770B7001-830D-4561-8957-BAEDFA892B88

 

Good point Dzine, this is a good article that questions the value of business education. I agree that most of the HR people won't check if the MBA is accredited or not, and that some people can get away with a degree from Rushmore, KW or Trinity for a job.

Especially if you work in a foreign country and your degree is from your country of origin. I know of many Canadians that get good jobs in the States with bogus degrees from Vancouver University only because in the States few people know the education system in Canada and they can be fooled easily. In Mexico, I met an American citizen that was a dean at a major University with a degree from Pacific Western University. There are tons of English teachers as a second language working overseas with degrees from Trinity. The whole education system is in question since experience shows that many people can succeed with no education or bogus degrees. So what is the future of education? Just get an easy degree and put emphasis on experience?

 

I don’t think I’m advocating an “easy” degree. What I’m in favor of is relevant business education. – I’m sure you worked very hard for your SJSU degree. I’ll also assume that you worked equally hard for UOP degree.

Am I working hard for my Rushmore degree? I am indeed. Your statements about “getting away” with a Rushmore degree are insulting. Most of Rushmore’s students are working very hard on their programs. If they wanted to “buy” a degree, those services are a close as a mouse click away. Can the program be improved? Sure it can (as can all programs). That doesn’t mean people in the program aren’t making an effort.

One could just as easily insinuate that you went to UOP because you didn’t have the SAT scores to get into a “real” college. I’m sure that’s not the case, but as a professional working in the valley I’ve heard those types of comments made in the past. For that matter, I know several Stanford MBAs who would never have dreamed of earning their degrees at SJSU. Does that mean that the Stanford MBA worked harder on his degree than you did? My guess is no; however, one could easily argue that your state degree is “worth less” economically then a comparable Stanford degree.

Here’s an example of the hypocrisy. California now has minimal education standards for those working as paralegals. In years past, several people paid thousands of dollars to attend the program at Santa Clara University (I was one of those people). Now the same teachers taught the same classes at De Anza at a fraction of the cost. At the time the De Anza program was one of the only ABA approved programs in the Valley. Santa Clara University opted out of the ABA approval process, choosing instead to operate under the auspices of Santa Clara Law School. Now which program had more economic value for the student? Technically, it should have been De Anza. However, we both know that in the real world, I’m going to look at the Santa Clara graduate before I look at the candidate from De Anza. I’m conscious of that reaction, so I try to avoid the impulse. After all, it’s nothing but pure snobbery.

Now let’s take this a step further. I’ve hired people out of both of these programs. I’ve also hired people without the education but with years of experience, and of course there are those with educations in unrelated fields. Who do you think are the best performers? Not surprisingly I get both good and bad people from all four groups. Do I think we should move toward easy degrees that focus on experience? No, but I think experience is an equally important element.

On the legal front, I’ve been a long time advocate of residencies similar to those in the medical profession. I think the base education can be obtained by whatever means best suites the student (be it DL or residential).

I will say that I’m not a fan of DL for those fresh out of high school or with little to no business experience. I can’t imagine working in a “self-directed” program without the years of experience I have as a business owner and manager. I think younger students need the structure that a residential program can provide. I’m hopeful that those with substantial business experience have learned the requisite interaction skills on the Job.

On another note, I really enjoyed the link from your personal web site that talks about how you can earn a “Fully Accredited” degree through Excelsior by reading “Cliff Notes” and passing the CLEP exams. There’s a world class education for you. I’m glad to see those accrediting bodies are keeping us safe from the under educated. Why read an entire book when Cliff notes exist. Sounds like a tough degree to me. After all, according to the article all you need is a 50% to pass. I’m sure the person with an accredited cliff note educating is adding real value to his or her work place.

Sorry, I couldn’t resist. I know you didn’t write this “how to” book but I’m sure you can see the irony. This approach will probably work for some. To me it just seems to be the very type of thing accreditation advocates claim to be against.

Again, Just my 2 cents

 

Hmmm. I can’t seem to figure out how to post direct back to an earlier post. Does anyone know if there is a way to do that? It looks like all posts are in Chron order. In any event this is a reply to rich

Rich, It looks as though you’ve had an interesting career. Was the MBA truly required for the training position or were they looking any type of graduate education? Just curious.

I’ve actually considered going back for a pure liberal arts degree. Most of my education is very specialized (ASB in Business; Honors certificate in Paralegalism; and evening law school BSL/JD program). It seems as though I’ve spent an entire career acquiring skills instead of learning what I’m interested in. My bookcase is filled with history, science and philosophy titles. If I had to do it all over again I’d probably chose to be an unemployed philosophy major. In earlier days, I would have chosen science over law, but I’m a better reader than math mathematician (I think I fall into the mathematically challenged category which is why I have a problem with QA).

The specialized education has paid off. I earn a fairly comfortable living and have owned a couple successful (and some not-so successful business). Still, I sometimes wonder what I would have become if I hadn’t been in such a hurry to make a living.

 

Use the small quote button at the end of post that you wish to site. (In lower right hand corner.

 

Use the small quote button at the end of post that you wish to site. (In lower right hand corner. [/QUOTE]

Much easier - Thanks!

 

"Before we discuss the terms of the job contract, Mr. Flange, could you just briefly explain how it is you earned your degree from a school with a campus in the Grand Cayman islands, run from Georgia, and named for a mountain in South Dakota, formerly accredited by a Nevada-based accrediting agency run from California. Oh, and, by the way, we will be offering you a position managing our facility in Oregon. Mr. Flange? Mr. Flange? Oh, dear. Bring in the smelling salts, please, Miss Farkle..."

 

Required, sort of. The position I hold now requires a master's in either business or training, or a related subject. That's because I'm a leadership trainer and training developer.

 

The central theme of my dissertation is whether or not these things are questioned. I suspect what is central to the successful application of a degree such as Rushmore's when no one asks.

 

Probably in the same way your Boss, Mr. Johnson, was able to earn a degree from a prestigious 100 year old European School, whose program run by a third party corporation and located in Scotland while living in Oakland and taking exams in San Francisco. All with little faculty interaction. It’s great that he was able to earn an RA accredited degree through distance learning. Oh, British charter…. my mistake.

 

Boy this is fun… and so constructive. And YES I know it’s a good program. BTW: I won’t even start on the whole OR thing. Interestingly, I located a page on the OR site a couple of weeks back that said that hey wouldn’t even consider DL only schools. I can no longer find that quote which seems interesting.

 

I've often pointed out the potential difficulties in explaining how one earned a degree from a school in a foreign country. I've also warned about the potential of getting screened out without even being given an opportunity to explain. But between Rushmore--or any other such school--and a recognized, foreign university, I'd take the latter every time. That's a story worth telling.

 

Point taken, but I’m not sure why it’s being assumed that graduates have something to hide. Let them ask.

I’ve noticed several programs that have changed their names, locations or other aspects of their programs over time. Of course, some are fly-by-night operations, but others are simply trying to reorganize there businesses. At the AA/ Diploma level I believe ICS has changed its name (maybe to hide from Sally Struthers) . I’m wonder how much of a problem that presents for their students.

As a business owner I’ve run Delaware corporations from my home office in California. Typically holding meeting in leased office suites. Why? Because I like the favorable tax climate. Do I ever travel to Delaware? Not very often (walk through downtown Wilmington sometime and you’ll see why). It’s simply how many corporations now do business. I currently work in the IP law field and I can tell you that thousands of reputable corporations pick up stakes and move to more favorable locals almost daily.

The problem for some may be that, perceptually, we equate “School” with ivy covered brick buildings. We need to remember that many DL programs are not schools in the traditional sense. They are for profit corporations and as such, these entities have an obligation to maximize their profitability. This isn’t necessarily wrong (after all that’s what you’re taught to do in B School). It is however different from what we’re accustomed to.

Many of the people who enter programs like Rushmore’s already have professional credentials to stand on (either through business reputation or formal education). The purpose of my MBA program is not to “get a job.” I’m using this opportunity to do research I feel will be important to others in my field. I’m able to do that research under the wing of a personal mentor (and thankfully an editor) . If someone asks what I did while at Rushmore, I should be able to point them to my body of research.

I think employers face a bigger problem with the cliff note degree. Because the final degree awarded comes from an accredited institution, no-one will question “how” the student earned the credential. I’m assuming that it’s difficult retain much useful knowledge this way; which, in my mind makes the degree worthless; however, this practice is obviously permitted by the accrediting bodies.

I personally feel that Rushmore’s programs (or most DL course work) are not for the guy trying to get his first corporate job while working at Mickey Ds. There’s no balance of credentials in that situation.

 

That was point in regard to DL degrees overall (both accredited and not). I do a modest amount of hiring in my position, and to be honest I’d never heard of many of these DL schools until I browsed this site. Looking back, I really can’t think of a specific instance when I knew someone had earned there degree through DL while looking at their Resume. I’m don’t believe that I would have intentionally passed someone with a DL degree over, but I may have chosen candidates from schools I recognized over those from the DL schools.

 

Changing names isn't a problem. For example (last or current name, then original name)

Union Institute and University
Union for Experiementing Colleges and Universities

Beacon College
Campus-Free College

Capella University
The Graduate School of America

Argosy University
University of Sarasota

Excelsior College
University of the State of New York Regents Externa Degree Program

Charter Oak State College
Connecticut State Board for Academic Awards

Burlington College
Vermont Institute of Community Involvement

Saybrook Graduate School
Humanistic Psychology Institute

California Institute of Integral Studies
California Institute of Asian Studies

All accredited, btw.

As for incorporation, that example fails. Delaware and Nevada are tax havens. The business incorporated there--but really located elsewhere--still fall under the laws of their domicile states. But schools that are licensed in one state while really operating in another are avoiding regulation entirely by licensing in a state with none. Taxes are not the same as educational quality. Whether or not a manufacturing company pays state taxes--or to what amount--doesn't affect the quality of the products made. Consumers don't have to take this into account when making their decisions. But state oversight is certainly a factor in the qualilty of degrees issued. There are no bad schools in New York because the state doesn't allow it. But South Dakota does (or did). And so does the Cayman Islands.

It is not "DL vs. brick-and-mortar." It is legitimately recognized or not. The reason that degree mills don't have brick-and-mortar campuses is because they're not necessary. There is no such thing as a residential diploma mill. Diploma/degree mills share two things in common: they're non-residential and they're unaccredited. The consumer is left with trying to discern between the diploma mills and the legitimate-but-not-accredited schools. Tough call. Accreditation not only does that, it also ensures a wider acceptance of one's credential. And that is why one pursues one's education in a university instead of a library.

 

I skimmed thru twenty Rushmore faculty resumes:
Only two mentioned Rushmore teaching in the resumes including a Rusmore DBA candidate.
Two of the listed faculty are dead.

 

That actually not entirely true. Corporations move for a variety of reasons, including changes in regulations that govern their businesses.

I’m not arguing that Rushmore shouldn’t seek accreditation. To the contrary, I’ve been very vocal in my desire to see the programs accredited. I will submit that lack of accreditation does not a degree Mill make. Are you arguing that all degree-based programs should be part of a residential School?

“Accreditation not only does that, it also ensures a wider acceptance of one's credential”

Which is too bad considering my Cliff note example. A government-sanctioned degree without the benefit of knowledge should not be ensured wider acceptance in my opinion. How anyone can argue that this is a more credible degree is beyond me.