Questions for current Army personnel on the board

Re: Same

Ooo -- Sam's Club - bad bad boy! Going to anything with the WalMart label is very very bad.

 

The military is not full of stupid people, though I have not researched it, they are no more and no less than a sampling of society.

There are enlistees with degrees, for various reasons. The Navy has started a new pilot program that allows senior non-commissioned officers to complete a graduate degree (resident), much like they offer officers (I wish the Army would follow this program, but oh well, at least they pay all of my tuition). There are many non-commissioned officers in the Army with college, bachelor degrees, and master degrees. I am one of those senior non-commissioned officers pursuing a graduate degree. There has been a definite shift on the benefits of pursuing an education, the military really pushes it, but of course we are a little busy right now, so it may not be priority number one. The Army also utilizes Smart Force eLearning, which is free to all, in addition to e Army U.

The current FORSCOM message on drug use is one shot, one kill. If you are found positive on a drug test you are to be separated from service, but bear in mind that the commander has some discretion here. This does not cover civilians. From what I gathered if you fail at MEPS you are denied enlistment. Of course, the background investigation will ask about drug usage, and you will once again be asked if you are attempting to receive a clearance. If you used in the past, before military service, you should be able to get a secret clearance, a top secret clearance could be problematic, and would likely be denied, but there are too many variables involved to give a definitive answer.

Should a person who has issues join the service, sure, if they want to, and the are willing to make changes, otherwise they will probably not enjoy their time in uniform, and you definitely do not want to get in trouble in the service over drugs or other issues.

As others have stated, any MOS, and anyone joining the Army best be prepared for a tour in Iraq, Afghanistan, or anywhere else Uncle Sam sends us. The fighting today is not limited to combat mos's, in fact, it is probably safer being in the Cavalry or Infantry in that environment, as you have the soldiers, equipment, and training in order to do your job and return home in one piece.

Anyway, you need a recruiter to answer many of your questions.

SFC William Parker
Scout PSG
US Army

 

Clay, in order to go SF you need a 100 GT score now, though I have seen it also listed as 110. I suppose it depends which site you look at. I do recall when SF was making their rounds they stated it was 100 to go to selection.

http://www.usarec.army.mil/hq/sfas/

William

 

Clay

My error, but times have changed. Getting older, always makes the past look better. Also as I said, the requirements have been lowered. This make those, who were formerly ineligible, able to play SF. At what expense? I doubt BUDS has lowered their standards. With the war going on, we take what's available.
Thanks William,
Clay

 

a few comments for those who might be interested...

I was, for a couple years, an ASVAB (and other exam) test administrator. Not to demean the "high test scores" of some who post here and elsewhere -- the line "you can have any job you want" is used on about everyone... It's a sales tactic called ego boosting.

The ASVAB, and GT/QT scores, are not indicators of intelligence. The ASVAB is a vocational aptitude test of specific application to the US military. It's actually a battery of seperable exams able to show potential in a few wide career fields.

A person "dumb as a bag of rocks" can score very high on that test if he has a high mechanical aptitude and exceptional attention to detail.

A person "sharp as a tack" can score very poorly by doing nothing more than over-analysing the questions...

To wipe away an old myth (again and again); recruiters and drill instructors have nothing (nada, zip, zilch) to do with the administration and scoring of that test -- those tests are given by NCOs selected for the purpose and those NCOs do not fall under the control or influence of either Recruiting Command or Basic Military Training. They fall under the control of the Military Entrance Processing Command and these individuals are not interested in the slightest in "recruiting quotas" or "recruit retention" -- all we ever cared about was test control.

Also, when considering whether an infantryman acquires marketable civilian skills, one has to consider what it is an infantryman does. There is more to any Army MOS than what meets the eye. Infantrymen are often assigned duty as trainers -- the ability to teach and to speak in public are valuable civilian skills.

Tank Drivers operate highly sophisticated target acquisition systems -- they often have to drive the HET trucks that transport their tank -- they too conduct training -- more civilian related skills.

More important though -- people from the combat arms "work very well under extreme pressure". This too can be a very valuable skill in the civilian world. I'll take a technician who can repair a computer while being shot at over one with an ASc from local CC anyday.

Now, the single most important thing I tell people I know who are thinking of joining the military. The military exists for the single purpose of going to war. That's what soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines train to do.

The military doesn't exist to provide career training, higher education, drug rehab., delinquency intervention, etc... it exists to prepare for and execute warfare. One might get some career benefit or education benefit by joining the military -- or, he may not. The job is to fight in wars...

Anyone joining the military (now or in 5 years) should keep forefront in mind that the military exists to fight in wars.

Now, to say that "they are no more and no less than a sampling of society. " ignores the selectivity of the US military machine. They are more than a sampling of society in that, there is a certain selectivity in membership. I don't mean to imply that the sampling is "better" than society -- it is very different.

While society is just about 50/50 male:female -- the military is not. Society spans a wide range of ages -- the military considers people over 40 to be "old" and those between 18-21 prime candidates for handling very expensive and complex technology.

Society "forgives" those with drinking, drug, and legal problems once they "reform" -- the military no longer tolerates "problem children". Society values personal freedoms and choice -- the military values conformity and "mission". There are many more differences between the military and civilian worlds than there are similarities (IMHO).

On the plus side to military service and a career as a soldier -- I do enjoy that retirement check I get each month. To have been able to "retire" at 37 years old...

 

Indictment of all standardized tests....

This is a common indictment of all standardized tests and is as valid when applied to the SAT as the ASVAB. The University of California system has even threatened to stop using the SAT test as an evalutor of student potential. To me, intelligence is far more than the ability to do well on trivia questions but is more how well you analyze and apply your knowledge. That ability is very hard to test but will come out in the wash when the person succeed or fails in everyday life. However, since something is needed to evaluate the potential abilities of someone as well as evaluate educational outcomes, standardized tests will never go away.

The ASVAB is actually a pretty good test simply because of its breadth of testing. It is more than a test of academic ability (which despite your cliam it partially is ) but is also a test of practical technical knowledge such as mechanics. It tests in eight areas (used to be 5 I believe) and they are as follows:

General Science - measuring knowledge of life science, earth and space science, and physical science
Arithmetic Reasoning - measuring ability to solve basic arithmetic word problems
Word Knowledge - measuring ability to understand the meaning of words through synonyms
Paragraph Comprehension - measuring ability to obtain information from written material
Mathematics Knowledge - measuring knowledge of mathematical concepts and applications
Electronics Information - measuring knowledge of electrical current, circuits, devices, and electronic systems
Auto and Shop Information - measuring knowledge of automotive maintenance and repair, and wood and metal shop practices
Mechanical Comprehension - measuring knowledge of the principles of mechanical devices, structural support, and properties of materials

As I mentioned earlier I served a few years as a reinlistment NCO. It often required lower scores to enter the military than to reenlist. This meant that the Army had an active remedial education program designed to improve ASVAB scores. Many complained at having to participate but almost every one of those complainers later was glad they had participated. The usual comment was, "in school I was more interested in sports (or partying, etc) than in studying and I learned more in that program than I ever did in high school. The confidence boost that many of them received when they raised their scores often carried over into the pursuit of a degree.

 

The notion of "aptitude" is so discredited that its premier proponent, the Educational Testing Service no longer calls the Scholastic Aptitude Test (my emphasis) by that name. Now it is just the SAT which, presumably, doesn't stand for anything.

For a stinging indictment of the ETS, including its incredibly racist beginnings in Army testing, see "None of the Above," a book by David Owen.

 

Mr. Engineer's nephew

I am glad to hear that he is making the effort to improve himself. That right there shows something at a time when so many are avoiding service due to the threat of service in Iraq.

The military has always been more than a way to pay for college, see the world, or kill time before one settles down. Yes, it is all of those things but ultimately it is the arm of the government meant to forcefully defend the interests of the United States. Doing that means placing you or your friends lives in danger. It is an awesome responsibility and not one to be taken lightly.

I mentioned earlier that I felt maybe your nephew was more someone without a purpose than someone who's purpose was to cause trouble. The results can be the same but the first person can be saved whereas the second is usually headed straight to jail regardless of what those around them do for them.

My daughter did the college thing for a year and just couldn't focus on her studies (didn't like homework, right then I knew for sure she was my daughter, Ha Ha!). However, she has taken to the Air Foce like a duck to water. The girl who at home received daily lectures about her room cleanliness got an award the first month in tech school for having the cleanest room. She spends hours working on her uniform and won't even go to eat at her favorite chinese restaurant because it makes her uniform smell. In short, she is what we in the Army called "ate up". Her confidence level is through the roof and instead of constantly saying she has no clue what to do with her life she is eagerly planning her future. I am so proud of her I almost bust. Whether or not she stays in the military, what it has given her will serve her well the rest of her life.

This is what your nephew can get if he goes into the Army with his eyes open. He has to know that they will not do anything for him. In fact, what they expect is for him to do something for the service and for his peers. If that happens the favor will be returned but his future success or failure rests solely on his shoulders. Those first couple of weeks are going to be hell, even I who joined after years of planning stood in formation that first week asking myself just what the heck I had gotten myself into. If her realizes it isn't personal and it is nothing but a head game designed to bond him with his buddies he'll get through it.

Leave him with the thought I gave my daughter on the honor and responsibility he is undertaking. If Bill Gates were to walk down the street in a $1000 suit in most any city of the world very few people would have any clue, or even care, who he is . However, let the lowest ranking US soldier, sailor, marine or airmen walk down that same street in uniform he or she would have almost instant recognition and expectations about who are what they are about. It was drilled into us when we went overseas about how our actions reasonate far beyond our individual responsibility. Your nephew is being offered an opportunity and an honor. It is up to him if he can handle it. I wish him luck...

 

Clay

Coach,
As we have stated before, DI's have no input concerning scores. And I agree the statement, "You can have any job you want", is a selling tool. However, once you pick your job (OCS,SF, etc...) you sign a binding contract stipulating that if you fulfill your obligations, the service will fulfill theirs. Someone, whether brilliant or not, performing poorly on the exams, will not be given the opportunity to attend certain schools. The exams work as a filter, and save time, on recruits showing a lack of/or aptitude in specific areas.

I disagree that the scores do not guage intelligence. They cover a variety of topics. Everyday topics. Perhaps a person may be bright in a certain area, but to say an intelligent (aware of everyday life and educated) person can still score poorly, is an excuse for being ignorant. This does not take into consideration folks who have an aversion to tests.

The tests are very broad in scope. Can you suggest another system to determine a recruits intelligence? I believe intelligence is the ability to solve problems without having all the pieces to the puzzle. Not memorizing a list of data, serving little purpose. Attention to detail is, I think, an essential component of intelligence. Intelligence is also the ability to question the meaning of intelligence. Who knows? I certainally would not bet the barn, on an answer supplied by the egoists on this board.

As we have both said, the military is for fighting wars, not social experiments. To intentionally score poory on an exam, will not keep someone from fighting. It will most likely hasten their assignment to a combat unit.

Any clown expecting a free ride through college, and then deciding the military is not their cup of tea, should spend their commitment in the slam, relinquish their degree, and then be required to pay back all money owed for their education. The D.D. may not mean much to some, but most will not hire an untrustworthy scumbag.

Congrats on your retirement, watch out for recruiters from other agencies. 37, is just the right age. They want you erxperience, knowledge, maturity, and soul. The pay IS negotiable.
Clay

Mr. Engineer,
Coming down from a Nilla Wafer high makes me cranky. I'll try to stay away from Sam's. Are there any American stores left? I admit my ignorance in most areas, I'm a curmudgeon, and don't venture far any more. I gave the remainder of my case of cookies to some kids by the pool. Hope their moms don't know my condo. I'l be vacuuming all day. Keep us informed about the nephew. Could be another Al Hitchcock
Clay
P.S. Promise to refrain, from long posts again. VW toxins still in system.

 

Re: Clay

People always seem to think that the combat arms units are filled with dummies. Perversely, they often have higher averages than combat service support units. The difference is that people joining the service for adventure or college money are often drawn to combat arms units because:

a. combat arms skills often offer a GI Bill kicker and or bonus and this appeals to the college bound who are often on the brighter than average side of the recruit population

b. they offer adventure galore which often appeals to the brighter than average side of the scale

Another little known fact is that West Point offers branch assignments based on class standing. The combat arms branches usually are the first to fill up.

On the other hand, for the enlisted ranks service and support units most often draw those looking to make the service a career (one of the reasons promotions can stink in those MOS's). These tend to be people who are not looking for advanced education to get careers outside of the military and they tend to be on the lighter side of the intelligence pool. Granted, there are variances from the average but it is a trend.