PhD Choice

Great post, Warguns!

My first reaction was, "WOW!"

Thanks for sharing this.

Roscoe

 

Nova

I thought about Nova but they're a tier 3 school. A degree from Nova isn't that impressive. I was considering either University of Maryland or University of Albany for my PhD in CJ. Both tier 1 schools.

 

From the way this is described, it sounds like discrimination. The best person is not given the job, the best minority or other category that needs to be filled is given the job.

 

Most faculty who do the hiring are not sophisticated enough to know the difference between a "remote campus" and an on-line degree. I don't think they would consider it favorably, since a remote campus is generally just a few office units temporally rented and without a permanent, tenured faculty.

I can say that no one with a degree from a school like Argosy or Nova Southeastern has ever had it through the first cut in our department's hiring process. I can't say this is permanent but the prejudice is very strong.

Again, things might be somewhat different in a department where it's harder to get faculty: business and computer science.

 

Maryland and Albany State are probably the two best CJ programs in American. Cincinnati is also very good. If you're going full-time, you shouldn't settle for less than a complete free ride.

Please consider my advice about some LEO experience. You wouldn't be taken as seriously by law enforcement if you never wore tin.

Many prospective graduate students don't know it but almost all doctoral students at major universities receive tuition waivers and a fellowship or staff job at least up to the dissertation. The better the school the more likely of support. If you can afford to go full-time and can get in, there's no reason to believe that you can't afford graduate school.

This does NOT apply to law, medicine, business, or psych DPsy. I don't know whether it does for a professional degree like a DBA.

 

Yes, it does look that way. However, my reference to Warguns' post was about the depth and insight he brought to the issue as an "insider." He confirmed some of the views that have been discussed here in the past.

A common question directed to DL students has been, "How do you plan to use the degree?"

A good question.

Roscoe

 

Actually, this year, the practice of sorting minorities into a separate pile was eliminated because "affirmative action" was expressly made unlawful at state institutions.

Still, there's no doubt that a somewhat less qualified minority candidate (no Asians) would certainly be hired rather than a somewhat more qualified white one. This is simply a reality that probably exists at nearly every college in America.

Occasionally, Mediocre State, we receive an application from an extremely well-qualified minority candidate but usually lose them to better schools. Sometimes, they're stuck in the area, usually because of a spouse's job and we get them.

 

This is one thing I worry about in obtaining a DSc rather than a PhD. Is the DSc considered to be a weird doctorate?

One nice thing about DSU's DSc program is that it is not an executive program. It has all of the same components of a regular PhD program. The reason DSU chose to offer the DSc rather than the PhD is because DSU is more interested in the applied side of research rather than the theoretical. Although, I still wish DSU would have just gone with the PhD rather than the DSc.

In my case, I am not looking for a doctorate to obtain a tenure track academic job, but, if I were, I'd say you definitely changed my mind on the idea of earning a doctorate via DL.

 

10-20 years from now

Respectfully, I completely disagree. The generation to do the hiring in 10 years was hired 5 years ago. They did not go to distance schools and they wouldn't hire distance doctorates. In 20 years, the generation being hired right now will be doing the hiring. I don't believe they will any different.

Recall, that even at Mediocre State University, we receive hundreds of applications, almost all from traditional programs, for each position.

As I've stated before, programs where faculty are in great demand may be different: business, CIS, maybe engineers.

Fifty years from now things may be different. Maybe the residential PhD will be extinct.

I don't believe an analogy with library degrees applies. The MLS is a first professional degree not a doctorate. Most librarians work in public libraries and there is no traditional library school nearby (there are only about 55 in the whole country; only TWO in all of California). Career prospects for librarians are excellent. In contrast, only about 60% of social science PhDs find a job in their field.

 

Warguns,

What about B&M schools that offer DL degree programs? Would they consider hiring some of their own DL graduates? To do other wise would seem hypocritcal and even suggest they don't value their own programs.

Any thoughts?

Roscoe

 

While you have directed this question at Warguns, I'l take this opportunity to weigh in first.

The hiring of alumni fresh out of school for a tenure-track faculty position is generally viewed quite negatively in academia. In additon to the oft-cited academic inbreeding issues, there is an implication that the student cannot find a job elsewhere or that for whatever reason the school cannot compete in the market for new faculty.

Generally, it is only acceptable to hire an alum for a tenure-track position when they has proven themselves at another institution (tenure, promoted to full professor, Nobel Prize, etc.).

From my experience, the proportion of tenure-track faculty with degrees from the school at which they teach is negatively correlated with the perceived quality of their doctoral program.

The above is true for traditional, resident and full-time B&M doctoral alumni. I suspect that the hiring of alums that have completed a short-residency or no-residency program would be perceived even more negatively.

 

Thanks, Foobar!

I forgot about the inbreeding thing.

However, I do wonder if the hiring practice described by Warguns is common with B&M schools that have DL degree programs.

Roscoe

 

DL PhD

I have completed both my BS and my MA on-line. One of my classes for my MA was in person. I know from experience that on-line courses can be much harder than a traditional class but many without that experience disagree. My brother-in-law works for the largest wine manufacturer in the world. In his opinion distance degrees are a joke. People with distance degrees aren't hired with his company. For many I think that because the degree was finished on-line it wasn't the kind of intellectual investment that traditional butt in the seat college degrees are. PhD's specifically are a full time degree program. Completing them on-line appears to be the easy way out even though it's not true. Regardless of how hard the degree was it will be impossible to change people's perceptions. Maybe one day the majority of B&M schools will have distance degrees so nobody will be able to tell the difference. Until then we're stuck.

 

Not entirely related, but many years ago i was thinking of attending bschool full time for an MBA. I had discussions with a member of the admissions committe at a top 20 school, who told me in clear terms, that if i did not get a GMAT score of 700+, then there was no point applying. It seems the average GMAT score of Asian Indian candidates at that school was 710.

Sathya

 

Completing a couple of degree online as well as traditionally, I agree that OL courses can be difficult. However, there is the issue of selection bias meaning that those with certain qualities tend to enroll in a OL course while those that do not have those qualities tend to take only traditional face-to-face courses and resist OL course enrollment. So saying that OL courses are harder is difficult for me to say.

Yup, and marketing campaigns like this [notice the URL] are not helping change perceptions.

 

A couple more programs to add to your list of possibilities:

University of Missouri Saint Louis
Top four ranking is US News

University of California Irvine
Top four ranking is US News.
It's a UC and has an online masters program so it may be more inclined to be receptive to a student who has taken the majority of their coursework online. (Just speculation on the last part.)

 

Warguns offered some good insight into the ph.d process. For some of us, obtaining a graduate online is perhaps the only way we can get anytype of education. A lot of military and law enforcement professionals rely on distance learning methods to achieve their educational goals. I guess the thing we should realize is that obtaining a ph.d online will probably not lead to a tenured position at a traditional school.

 

And for some of us, completing an undergrad and then a grad degree can only be done online due to commitments. I work FT and am a FT father and husband, if it were not for distance/online education, I would not be pursuing an undergrad degree.

Institutions really do have to realize that many of us are willing to put in the effort and bring with us a great amount of discipline (not everyone can complete an entire degree via DL/online studies due to the commitment one has to make to themselves) but can't attend a B&M due to work/family obligations. It is also worth noting that many DL students are professionals who are already gainfully employed. Aside from those responsibilities, I have a mortgage, a car payment, etc. and simply could not afford to take the time off to complete a degree. Clearly a DL degree is not only the most viable solution, it is the only solution, particularly to pursue a degree in disciplines of my choice! I considered Athabasca and was not happy with getting their IT degree... thankfully I stumbled on this forum and was eventually pointed to FHSU and am now going into my 4th year there.

So, if it were not for DL/online learning, I wouldn't be furthering my education.

 

Amen to that. I got my master's via online it was the only option available. Working in law enforcement, being deployed to Iraq as a reservist while trying to be good husband and father is a lot of hats to wear. What always surprises me about ph.d students at my local university is that majority of them have no work experience whatsoever. They've never worked in govt, private sector or military. If money as well as military and family obligations were not an issue I would love to be a full time doctoral student.