Northcentral U is now accredited.

Reply to Rich Douglas

Rich,

You have said that, “One this is for sure, accredited schools are superior to unaccredited schools. And degrees from accredited schools are far more useful than those from unaccredited schools.”

I would like to respectfully disagree with your position, although with some limitations. I know you have been an educator for some time, and have experience in the business field. I am not looking to start a feud, only to suggest that your statement above is rather broad, and may not apply to all fields of study.

For example, I am not familiar with the performance of BJU grads in the fields of business, education, accounting, etc. However, in the field of theology, grads from unaccredited but quality schools have done quite well with their degrees. Attached is a list of graduates from unaccredited schools (BJU, Pensacola, Central Baptist, Detroit Baptist) who have subsequently gotten into accredited and highly competitive doctoral programs, and are now gainfully employed as seminary/university professors. Therefore I would say that within this field, their unaccredited degrees provided those individuals with both education and a marketable credential, i.e. utility in their chosen field.

Jeffrey D. Arthurs, Associate Professor of Preaching, Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary
B.A., M.A., Bob Jones University; M.A., Western Seminary; Ph.D., Purdue University

Eugene Merrill, Distinguished Professor of Old Testament Studies, Dallas Theological Seminary, Adjunct Professor of Biblical Studies, Temple Baptist Seminary
B.A., M.A., Ph.D., Bob Jones University; M.A., New York University; M.Phil., Ph.D., Columbia University.

Barry J. Beitzel, University Provost, Professor of Old Testament and Semitic Languages, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School
BA, MA, Bob Jones University, PhD, The Dropsie University

Richard A. Taylor, Professor of Old Testament Studies, Dallas Theological Seminary
B.A., M.A., Ph.D., Bob Jones University, M.A., Ph.D., Catholic University of America

Russell T. Fuller, Associate Professor of Old Testament, The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
B.A., M.A., Bob Jones University; M.Phil., Ph.D., Hebrew Union College

William J. Rudd, Adjunct Professor of Homiletics, Baptist Bible Seminary
B.A., Bob Jones University, M.Div. Grace Theological Seminary, D.Min., Grand Rapids Baptist Seminary

James D. Stevens, Professor of Biblical Studies, Liberty University
B.A., Bob Jones University; M.Div. Grace Theological Seminary, S.T.M., Dallas Theological Seminary; M.Ed., Lynchburg College; D.Min., Trinity Evangelical Divinity School

Don M. Hudson, Associate Professor of Old Testament, Western Seminary
M.A.R., M.Div., Bob Jones University; M.A.B.C., Colorado Christian University; Th.M., Grace Theological Seminary; Ph.D., Westminster Theological Seminary

R. Larry Overstreet, Professor of Pastoral Theology, Northwest Baptist Seminary
B.A., Bob Jones University; M.Div., San Francisco Baptist Theological Seminary; M.A., Ph.D., Wayne State University

Curt Watke, Visiting Professor, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary
B.A., Bob Jones University; M.A.B.S., M.Div., Biblical Theological Seminary; Ph.D. Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary

Larry Pettegrew, Professor of Theology, The Master’s Seminary
B.A., Bob Jones University; M.Div., M.R.E., Th.M., Central Baptist Theological Seminary; Th.D., Dallas Theological Seminary

Edward G. Dobson, Pastor, Calvary Church, Grand Rapids, former Professor at Liberty University
B.A., M.A., Bob Jones University; Ph.D., University of Virginia

Joel Porcher, Professor, Pensacola Theological Seminary
M.Div. Bob Jones University; Ph.D. Clemson University

James Lacy, Adjunct Professor of Pastoral Studies, Grand Rapids Baptist Seminary
B.A., Bob Jones University; M.A. Northwest Baptist Seminary; M.R.E., Grand Rapids Baptist Seminary; D.Min., Trinity Evangelical Divinity School

Daniel Carfrey - Associate Professor of Pastoral Studies and Bible, Appalachian Bible College
B. A., Bob Jones University; Th.M., Dallas Theological Seminary

R.J. Gore, Vice President and Dean, Associate Professor of Systematic Theology, Erskine Theological Seminary
B.A., M.A., Bob Jones University; M.A., S.T.M., Faith Theological Seminary; M.A., St.Charles Borromeo Seminary; Ph.D., Westminster Theological Seminary

Leonard W. Pine, Assistant Professor of Practical Theology, Western Reformed Seminary
B.A., M.A., Bob Jones University; M.Div., Western Reformed Seminary; D.Min. Candidate, Westminster Theological Seminary (Escondido)

Dennis E. Williams, Professor of Christian Education and Leadership, The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
B.S., M.A., Bob Jones University M.A., Northern Arizona University; M.R.E., Ph.D., Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary

Thomas E. Finch, Associate Professor of Theology, Moody Bible Institute
B. A., M.A., Bob Jones University; Th.M., Ph.D., Dallas Theological Seminary.

David B. Finkbeiner, Associate Professor of Theology, Moody Bible Institute
B.A., Bob Jones University, M.A., M.Div., Biblical Theological Seminary, Ph.D., Trinity International University.

James A. Freerksen, Professor of Biblical Studies, Liberty University
B.A., Pillsbury Baptist College; M.Div., Th.M., Central Baptist Theological Seminary; Th.D. Grace Theological Seminary

Michael Grisanti, Associate Professor of Old Testament, The Master’s Seminary
B.A., Pillsbury Baptist Bible College; M.Div., Th.M., Central Baptist Theological Seminary; Th.D., Dallas Theological Seminary

Robert Milliman, Professor of New Testament, Central Baptist Theological Seminary
B.S., Pillsbury Baptist Bible College; B.A., University of Minnesota; MDiv, ThM, Central Baptist Theological Seminary, PhD, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School

Roy Beacham, Professor of Old Testament, Central Baptist Theological Seminary
B.A., Pillsbury Baptist Bible College; MDiv, ThM, Central Baptist Theological Seminary, ThD, Grace Theological Seminary

Thomas Zempel, Professor of Biblical Counseling, Central Baptist Theological Seminary
B.A., Pillsbury Baptist Bible College; MDiv, Central Baptist Theological Seminary, DMin, Westminster Theological Seminary

Dell Johnson, Dean, Pensacola Theological Seminary
MRE, MDiv, ThM, ThD, Central Baptist Theological Seminary, DMin, Grace Theological Seminary

Greg Mutsch, Professor, Pensacola Theological Seminary
MDiv, Central Baptist Theological Seminary, Ed.D. Bob Jones University; DMin, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School

James Stitzinger, Associate Professor of Historical Theology, The Master’s Seminary
BA, Northwestern College; M.Div., Central Baptist Theological Seminary; Th.M., Grace Theological Seminary; Ph.D. candidate, Westminster Theological Seminary

David W. Ronan, Associate Professor of Intercultural Studies, Grand Rapids Baptist Seminary
B.A., Pillsbury Baptist Bible College; M.Div., Central Baptist Theological Seminary; Ph.D., Trinity Evangelical Divinity School

David Doran, President, Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary
MDiv, ThM, Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary, DMin, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School

Benjamin Cocar, Assistant Professor of Bible/Theology, Luther Rice Seminary
M.Div, Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary.; D.Min., Grace Theological Seminary,

David Durst, Assistant Professor of Biblical Studies, Pillsbury Baptist Bible College
B.A., Grand Rapids Baptist College; M.Div., Th.M., Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary; Ph.D. (in progress), Dallas Theological Seminary

Michelle Lee, Assistant Professor of Biblical Studies and Theology, Talbot School of Theology
A.B., Harvard University; M.S., Pensacola Christian College; M.A., Talbot School of Theology; Ph.D., University of Notre Dame.

Darrell Holley, Professor of English and Latin, Free Will Baptist College
B.S. Pensacola Christian College; M.A. Florida State University; Ph.D. Florida State University

 

One would expect exceptions. There are a few unaccredited, residential schools whose degrees enjoy widespread acceptance. No reasonable person would argue that. But those exceptions provide absolutely no support for the quality or acceptability of degrees from all the other unaccredited schools.

Again, these are exceptions, not the rule. Look at what I said. I didn't say ALL unaccredited schools. My statement was in general. The research available certainly supports that.

So, is your point that some unaccredited schools' degrees are well respected? That's already a given. Or is it that degrees from any (most? some?) unaccredited school will see some acceptance in academic or business circles? I'd like to see the proof for the latter, but the evidence is quite the opposite.

BTW, I'm not an educator with some business experience. It is the other way around. I'm a corporate trainer with additional experience in teaching in college and graduate school. (Although why you bring up me or my background is baffling. What does it matter?)

 

The list is sort of a "so what" in the sense that this is all hiring within the nexus of religious viewpoints basically similar to those of the unaccredited schools from which these professors graduated--among others, for the most part. I can show the same thing with graduates of my denomination's unaccredited seminary getting hired at our accredited colleges: it's nice, but it doesn't prove much about at-large utility of unaccredited degrees. What either the actual list above or my putative list DO show is that in certain carefully hedged circumstances, degrees from unaccredited schools are apparently not an invariably insuperable liability.

 

(Although why you bring up me or my background is baffling. What does it matter?)

Rich,

If I inadvertently offended you with my comment on your background (certainly not intended as any disparagement), I apologize. Let me try rephrasing it as...

I would like to respectfully disagree with your position, although with some limitations. I recognize your expertise in the area of corporate training and education, but I think that your statement above is rather broad, and may not apply to all fields of study.

Rich: “One this is for sure, accredited schools are superior to unaccredited schools. And degrees from accredited schools are far more useful than those from unaccredited schools.”

Rich: "I didn't say ALL unaccredited schools. My statement was in general."

I appreciate your clarifying that, Rich. It sometimes seems like the prevailing wisdom on degreeinfo is that your statement would indeed have applied to ALL unaccredited schools.

Rich: “But those exceptions provide absolutely no support for the quality or acceptability of degrees from all the other unaccredited schools.”

I wasn’t suggesting that all other unaccredited schools enjoy the same level of quality or acceptability. I just believe that quality and acceptability do not reside in the regional accreditation seal of approval.

 

Just another reply!

Rich: “One this is for sure, accredited schools are superior to unaccredited schools. And degrees from accredited schools are far more useful than those from unaccredited schools.”

DG1: I wasn’t suggesting that all other unaccredited schools enjoy the same level of quality or acceptability. I just believe that quality and acceptability do not reside in the regional accreditation seal of approval.

I agree! I work with a guy right now who has a diploma in General Engineering on his wall from Pacific Western University. This guy has a great job, and is very good at what he does. I do not know if the degree helped, or hurt him when he applied for this position. I can say that compared to many of the engineers that I have worked with in the past that this guy is as good if not better. He was educated after he obtained practical skills in the real world, which is why I applaud when I see more non-traditional schools getting accredited.

 

Re: Reply to Rich Douglas

 

Re: Just another reply!

Your work associate may find that his unaccredited degree will work against him should he need to find a job with a different employer. You could suggest to him that he look into a technology degrees offered by the "big three" DL schools .

 

Bill Grover: "Does this list provide any evidence of the utility of unaccredited degrees in terms of making the holder employable as a prof in an accredited seminary or grad school ?"

I think so. Many people here have suggested that an unaccredited degree on your resume is a time bomb whether it is the terminal degree or not.

 

I wouldn't necessarily go that far. But there's some truth to it.

The issue is the credibility of the particular school and of the degrees that it grants.

If a school is well known and thoroughly trusted by the people performing the judgement, then there won't be a problem.

But what happens if the people performing the judgement have never heard of the school, know nothing about it, or find it questionable for some reason? These people could research the school themselves, but that's seldom realistic. What they will do is defer to the judgement of the relevant academic and professional communities that check out schools.

In those cases, if the accreditors won't verify the school's credibility, an application is apt to get tossed. The school might be fine, but the odds strongly suggest that it isn't (since most non-accredited schools are lame), so why gamble?

And what might be worse, if graduates of a non-accredited school ever become controversial, the fact that they graduated from a non-accredited school might be used as ammunition against them. It's very easy to make people look flaky that way, even if it isn't always fair.

The thing is, you happen to like Bob Jones University. But you have no way of ensuring that everyone else shares that opinion (they don't) or have any knowledge about the school in the first place. The same goes for all the non-accredited schools that I like as well (which bear little or no resemblance to BJU).

This is why I think of good non-accredited schools as niche players. They are adapted to specialized contexts that constitute the school's particular ecological niche. That may be a religious denominational setting or perhaps a specialized occupation. But if a graduate moves out of the niche into a wider community that's unfamiliar with their school, they might find that acceptance drops off.

This, BTW, is one reason why I'm more skeptical of non-accredited generic degrees like MBAs than I am of more specialized degrees like a particular denomination's M.Divs. The latter comes pre-adapted to a sectarian ecological niche that is already predisposed to accept it.

 

My opinion is that if the terminal degree is RA then it is unlikely that an unaccredited degree would be a problem.

 

What about one who has a RA undergrad, grad and professional doctorate, then earns a non-RA Ph.D.?

For example, one who has the RA:

BA, MA, JD
ThB, MDiv, DMin
BS, MBA, DBA

Then earns a state approved Ph.D., e.g., from Cal Coast, SCUPS, etc.?

 

Actually, using your method of research, this hypothetical person would have nine degrees, Bill.

I was using three different scenarios, one who would have the RA BA, MA & JD. Or one who would have the RA ThB, MDiv & DMin. Or even the business major with the RA BS, MBA & DBA.

How would these fine folk fare with an unaccredited Ph.D.?

 

===

Anyone who can count to nine should not ask one who cannot count past six how those fine folks would fare. But if you require an answer, I would say that if one can earn an accredited doc, he has no need to prove anything further to anyone, my friend, particularly if the two were in the same discipline. So I would not be critical.

 

forgot a biggie

Dave

Here's one to add to your list:

Earl Radmacher, BA,MRE (BJU), ThM, ThD Dallas TS

Dr Radmacher is President Emeritus and Distinguished Professor of Systematic Theology Emeritus at Western CB Seminary (Portland, Or)

 

Thanks, Bill! I don't know how I missed Dr. Radmacher, as I peruse the Western Seminary catalog rather frequently. They are one of the places I am looking seriously at for the Th.M. Interestingly, a counselor told me that the Th.M. can be earned through modular summer classes. Was this an option when you were a student there?

Ironically, I am not looking to pursue the Th.M. at any of the schools in the list of quality unaccredited theological schools I posted. (This is not due to any lack of quality, but differing doctrinal opinion). So why the list? I guess I like to look out for the underdogs.

 

Dave

The other day I was sure I saw Radmacher driving along my street. I just looked in my phonebook and sure enough there is an Earl R living close by. The reason for my discovery of Earl's relation to your list is that on Monday I've an appointment to visit with a local Theo prof who co authored a book with Doc R. I saw on the book's info Radmacher's ed history.

No, Western didn't use the modular set up when I went but a lot of the same profs are there. Not Dr Cook, my fav , though. That was a "heavenly" experience for me there. My school principal regularly not only let me leave early on selected afternoons, he also watched my class for the last 30 min of the day...he's a Baptist elder.

 

Quite reminiscient of a "strange warmth" experience, Bill. I knew you had some Wesleyan blood in you.

 

updates page

Northcentral's accreditation is now mentioned on Ten Speed's updates page http://www.degree.net/updates/bearsguide14/index.html ,
but there are no corrections regarding Excelsior College. How crumb?