Most Rigorous PhD

Nope, not me, just the personal attacks I dislike, you must be thinking of someone else.

Just a general comment, I never made any personal attacks on anyone.

The thread you refer to (many months ago, so you must have thought about this a great deal) is one where there were personal attacks, I am not sure which players were involved, just that it was getting personal. Perspectives are OK, not the personal attacks.

I see you have spent a great deal of time on this issue, and for that I am sorry, my only comment months ago was to stop the personal attack garbage. It is unfortunate that you find that offensive. I don't remember making any statement of a particular person, as I awlays forget who is on which side, who has personal issues with who, etc. I just remember the great topics of discussion.

The moderators decide when it goes over the line, and close threads. I am allowed to disagree with anyone and speak my mind, as I did as diplomatically as possible - I tried to keep it light hearted, rather than mean - that is just my way. As you can see in recent months, the moderators are closing more and more threads, which is unfortunate. The "garbage" is even too much for them, I would have drawn the line sooner, but it is their call.

I do not see why anybody else would be interested, so feel free to PM me. I see I hit a nerve, and it was not intended, I just kept going to threads, hoping to see discussion, and it was only personall attacks. I don't like wasting my time reading those, but do like Off Topic posts. I think your time and energy is mis-directed, but you are allowed to do what you want. I just ask you don't waste other people's time with whatever issue you have with a post from months ago and post it again and again, I think I have pretty much responded to all of your issues.

 

>>Nope, not me, just the personal attacks I dislike, you must be thinking of someone else.



Bill says: Are there two Hans here?





>>Just a general comment, I never made any personal attacks on anyone.



Bill says: Oh, no! So, if someone is expressing his religious convictions and you say "blah, blah, blah" that is not a personal attack --just a general comment? Right!





>>The thread you refer to (many months ago, so you must have thought about this a great deal) is one where there were personal attacks, I am not sure which players were involved, just that it was getting personal. Perspectives are OK, not the personal attacks.



Bill says: Yes, I think about things which happened a whole two or three months ago.

I just asked you to please look at the thread and in a scholarly ( or rigorous?) manner show where anyone is being personally attacked. Apparently you are too busy to do that?





>>I see you have spent a great deal of time on this issue, and for that I am sorry, my only comment months ago was to stop the personal attack garbage. It is unfortunate that you find that offensive. I don't remember making any statement of a particular person, as I awlays forget who is on which side, who has personal issues with who, etc. I just remember the great topics of discussion.


Bill says: Again--show me where in that thread there is any personal attack. What I find offensive is your calling my opining "attack garbage." If I am not your referent, as you say, then whom in that thread is? Do you think that "rigor" requires precision?


>>The moderators decide when it goes over the line, and close threads. I am allowed to disagree with anyone and speak my mind, as I did as diplomatically as possible - I tried to keep it light hearted, rather than mean - that is just my way. As you can see in recent months, the moderators are closing more and more threads, which is unfortunate. The "garbage" is even too much for them, I would have drawn the line sooner, but it is their call.



Bill says: I politely again ask you, What is the "garbage" in that thread? Look at the thread and explicitly point it out.

Yes, and I'm allowed to disagree with you too. But if you ask me to evince the views I express, I will. I think "rigor" requires that.

Why do you think saying that another's opinion is "blah, blah, blah" is being "light hearted"?




>>I do not see why anybody else would be interested, so feel free to PM me. I see I hit a nerve, and it was not intended, I just kept going to threads, hoping to see discussion, and it was only personall attacks. I don't like wasting my time reading those, but do like Off Topic posts. I think your time and energy is mis-directed, but you are allowed to do what you want. I just ask you don't waste other people's time with whatever issue you have with a post from months ago and post it again and again, I think I have pretty much responded to all of your issues. [/B][/QUOTE]



Bill says: If you do not want to read something, then don't!

You haven't done me the courtesy of responding to ANY of my three issues above. You have not shown any evidence that in that thread I, or anyone, was making personal attacks or saying anything inappropriate to the Off Topic Forum or that what I said lacked substance or did not express or respond to diverse opinion.

I have no reason to think that if you feel at liberty without any argument to categorize anyone's thinking in such a cavalier manner, with no evidence, as just saying "blah, blah, blah" and do not care either enough to go back to that thread when politely asked and elicit from it a rationale for your manner there ,and here, that a PM to you would be of any profit to me or to you at all.

Yes, I think much and long on words, ideas, and opinions. These are the stuff I study. They are very important to me. Doing a dissertation requires that activity daily of me. I am now engaged with the ideas of around 50 different theologians from about 400BC to the present on one issue. I think much and hard about what they say.

Sometimes a great deal later I after reflection realize that I made an error in what I said here or in writing . When I realize that, I take the time and energy to attend to it. Even if it occured two months ago! To me "rigor" includes that!


Anyway, I'm done addressing this here with you unless you choose to go with it.

I wouldn't want a thread on what evidences rigorous degrees to have as a petty distraction the question of what evidences rigorous thinking.

 

PaulC,

I also haven't seen any DL graduate in top research journals (Information systems) or at least some decent information systems journal. Isn't this a good metric to judge the effectiveness of DL PhDs?

As for stats for evidence. I only have my personal experience, I have taken graduate business courses at three types of universities:

1-B&M top business school
2-Virtual accredited universities
3-Australian B&M university with DL programs

The typical time invested at the B&M top business school for a three credit course was about 12 hours per week for a period of 15 weeks, that is a total 180 hrs. Time was spent in preparing class presentations, group meetings, assignments and exams preparation. The 180 hours do not include time spent in class.


I took two MBA courses at a virtual university (I don't want to mention the name). All courses ran for 8 weeks and I spent around 6 hours per week (average) in online discussions and online paper preparation per course taken. No exams were required and only online discussions and written essay papers were submitted. That is a total 48 hrs for three credits.

Some of my DBA units at USQ were MBA and M.Sc units taken from their upper level specialization units. The typical time spent for a unit at USQ was about 60 hrs for assignments and 40 to prepare for the final examination. No online discussions were required, only two assignments and one final exam. So this is a total of 100 hrs per unit.

In my experience, I was able to percieve the difference between these thee types of learning experiences. Again, this is not enough to generalize since it is only based on my experience and with only few schools.

Did I learn from the MBA course taken at a virtual university? Yes I did, but I must say that I don't feel that I learned as much as the courses taken at the B&M high ranked institution.

I agree that one man's experience is not enough to generalize but we must get real and accept that there are differences between institutions and programs.

 

I'm sorry if I insulted people and be sure that this was not my intention. Instead of "easy" or "less rigorous", the word should be "more flexible".

As a DL learner, I chose DL because it was more "flexible". However, flexibility also means that the program allows us to accomodate family and work commitments and this sometimes cannot be compatible with very rigorous programs.

I completed an MBA at a very rigorous university and this took me 5 years part time, no weekends and almost a divorce at the end of the line. Was it worth it? As you said, in the world of business is the experience and not the school what it counts so it was not that worth it if you ask me.

For the same reason I decided to go for USQ, why? because I want a life and don't want to be stuck all the weekends studying as I did in my MBA. Is USQ a very rigorous school? The answer is not, at least not as some other schools that I attended but this is fine with me since I don't plan to teach at Harvard. However, we have to agree that some of the choices we make is because we want to "live" a life that is more balanced and we are adults that have commitments.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Most Rigorous PhD

I don't know enough about DL doctoral study to comment on the merits of the argument. But know this: I admire Andy's integrity to speak of the emperor's clothing in the land of the monarchist.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Most Rigorous PhD

Well said. I agree.
Jack

 

I only know a few in each area. From what i have experienced, I have met some pretty amazing people from each, but I don't know what the general rule is for each.

 

RF, you incorrectly attributed the post in the above reply to me. It was not mine. I was not "offended". I rarely get offended by anything. However, I was surprised by your willingness to state as fact a thing that simply is not true and for which no basis has been offered.

In my world of word definitions, "flexibility" doesn't reside anywhere near the word "rigor". I don't quite understand the notion that one precludes the other or even relates to the other. Pepperdine has a very flexible PhD program in Education, Nebraska has a very flexible PhD program in Education. By your definition of the word flexible, these two programs must also be "not rigorous".

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Most Rigorous PhD

Help me out here. Is degreeinfo the land of the monarchist? I have always wondered where that naked king called home.

 

I disagree. You might spend the time and effort at home, close to your family. Or at night, sleeping a few hours less but no losing daytime with it. Or maybe by studying for 10/12 years instead of 4.

Here is a hypothetical situation. There is a DL school that requires proctored exams before the dissertation. You study only by books. You can study at any time, and at any place. But the study period required to master all the materials in order to pass the exam is 8000 hours.

Even with complete flexibility, this hypothetical DL program would, before the dissertation, be more "rigorous" than most RA B&M PhDs (if 8000 hours is not enough for you, trade that for a million in the example).

The example is extreme, but I think the picture is that flexibility is not really always an opposite of rigor. You might commonly found a reverse relationship between them, I agree. But this is not true for all possible scenarios.

I believe Heriot Watt MBA follows more or less the idea of being flexible while very rigorous and I think they are accomplishing it. Even their DBA requires 5400 hours with hard examinations, which seems as rigorous or more than several B&M programs.

In short, to me, flexibility is not a characteristic that will always bring with it a less rigorous course, even if this is often true.