Kennedy Western University - How would you evaluate?

I was justifying my degree because I was called out by Bill. I originally posted on this thread to give my experience, and feelings on KW. I have been totally honest about the program, and have not at all tried to defend the practices of KW. I was asked how I justified the degree, and I gave my response. There you go.

I am certain that I am not the only one at KW that did valid work, but others may not have and therefore do not deserve their degree. Is that honest enough?

I absolutely disagree that the credibility of the student is not in play.

Opinions are like you know what and everybody has one. You have yours and I have mine.

For example: I feel a liberal arts degree is worthless in the real world. (no offense to anyone this is just my opinion) I also hated every fluff course that I took. If Sigmond Freud is the father of Psychology then I would hate to meet the rest of the family. I think he was nuts. While I do have an appreciation of music I lean more to Van Halen, Boston, and 38 Special, and could care less about Bosnian Ganga singers, Tuvan musicians, or Irish Folk music. While Picasso was great I would just as soon look at a great airbrush on a Harley. Macroeconomics was a little more interesting, but I would rather leave the economy in the hands of Greenspan, and keep my mind on electrical systems. Though I enjoyed most of my mathematics courses like algebra, trig., and calculus. Probability and Statistics is another fluff. When is the last time I have used a distribution table to find the z in a normal distribution curve? Ah Never! I would rather get my well roundedness at home watching Dateline, Survivor, and most of all SportsCenter.

Have a good 4th. I am going swimming.

 

Plscott - I have to disagree here. IMHO the point of an education is not just to teach you how to earn a living. A well rounded education teaches you how to live.

Although I teach at a school that focuses on engineering and the sciences, I'm a staunch defender of libreral arts. Our students need to broaden their perspectives and understand the implications of technology in society.

As for statistics being fluff - I have to ask "Have you ever worked for an organization that is employing TQM or Six Sigma?" Your open mindness on this topic may help preclude you from employment in some companies.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion - I just happen to think it is terribly narrow and unenlightened. Your combination of experience and formal coursework may well qualify you to perform as an engineer. Has it prepared you to appreciate life?

Regards - Andy

 

Good post, Andy.

As Pink Floyd put it (in an address to the Wyoming legislature) "We don't need no educytion. We don't need no thought control." No, apparently not.

 

Plc

There are a lot of issues you have lumped together. I certainly appreciate your honesty and openness. It speaks well of you.

I definately respect the legitimate worked you did at accredited colleges. Like most I have no respect for the K-W degree you purchased. As has been pointed out K-W will award a degree to anybody. The fact that you complete 2/3s of a degree is not the same as earning a degree. You definately are correct to assume a K-W degree opens the question of creditability of its graduates.

As far as your remarks about liberal arts degrees I think you are way off the mark. If what you want is a limited vocational degree that is great, but it certainly doesn't have the breadth nor the depth of L.A. degree. Some how Survivor does not strike as educational.

Was Freud mentally ill? If he was would he be the only genius who was? What about Van Goah?

In any events I appreciate your comments even if most of your opinions are questionable. I hope you have a great holiday.

 

I would completely disagree with this view. The credibility of the individual person is of greatest importance. People, not institutions, are hired for jobs. I would judge each person as to what they are, and what they offer. If individuals become unimportant then the system becomes the most important, and that is against everything we value as people. Many never fit the system, and that's good, very good...

 

Sorry, your portfolio is irrelevant to the point I was making.

What defines an institution's graduation requirements is not the person that did the most work. Even the person that does the average amount of work does not define an institutions graduations requirements.

What I said was, "The least academic work one can do and still get a K-W degree is closer to a degree given for zero work than it is to a standard degree."

Please read the above again and notice a very important word that you seemed to miss, least .

What defines the graduation requirements at an institution is the least amount of work that is needed. Now answer my question please. Where is the line drawn IN YOUR OPINION for the least units that meets the requirements for a Bachelor's degree?

120 credits is the standard
Is 60 credits enough?
Is 30 credits enough?
Is 15 credits of work enough?
What is the least ?

 

That doesn't exactly surprise me.

What you don't seem to understand is that a person's credibility consists of, among other things, their educational credentials. Someone who lists unaccredited degrees on their resume is usually, for better or worse, going to be looked upon less favorably than someone who lists properly accredited degrees.

Unless, of course, the PTB don't have a clue about issues of accreditation, which is probably why places like K-W have managed to get their degrees accepted by businesses.


Bruce

 

Here is the deal about accreditation and business. Most may not have a clue about accreditation, and some may know and just not care the way you do. I did not know much about accreditation until the past year or so when I was asked to be on the advisory committee for the local tech. schools ASEET program. They are SACS accredited, and had to follow certain guidelines in the program. At our meetings we are given meals and we sit around and chew fat, and give our approval. With all the fluff, and mandatory courses we have two courses we can change each year and that never happens.

After experiencing the advisory meetings I have realized that in academia everything is accreditation, and politics. Instructors , and department heads lobby for grants, and budgets, and that is why they need an advisory board to write letters on their behalf. The advisory board made up of business leaders can't really change what is taught, so we do not really advise. We sit around and tell the instructors, and department heads what we would like to see come out of their programs. Out of 6 meetings I have yet to here any business leader say send me some well rounded graduates.

When I hire someone for a position in my company I put a lot more weight on their skills and experience than I do on their education. One of my best technicians does not have any formal education. He learned electricity, and electronics from kits, and correspondence programs, and OJT. He learned hydraulics, pneumatics, HVAC and welding from me. The guy can do most anything, and he does not even have a certificate. I have had guys come out of Clemson BSEE that could barely read a meter, and cost me money on every job I put them on before I encouraged them to move on. Does that reflect on Clemson? I think not. Some people just do not have it, and you can't force it to them.

Most business people do not see the world the way some of you do. I want someone that has skills and can do things more than someone who has accredited credentials, and can't. In a perfect world I would get someone with credentials and skills, but it is my responsibility to judge that before I hire them. I want someone to perform so that they can put money in my pocket, and I in turn can put money in theirs. That is the real world. At lunch time we tend to talk sports, TV shows, and other everyday things, and not about Greek Philosophy.

hey whata ya say
hey whata ya say
RA is the only way
RA is the only waaay!!!

Wooo Yeepee!
Gooooo Regional!

 

Dave:

Good Post! I like it when people post their views without being arrogant jerks, and that is not seen here often.

To reply I must say this. I think your well roundedness comes before you enter college, and mostly grows from your enviroment. Taking a course where I had to listen to Stravinsky, and write papers about how his music made me feel is not going to change the type of music I like. In fact I find it shameful that I felt I needed to write a positive paper and shoot bull up my teachers butt to get an A, and I did get an A. I would much rather read about Jimmy Buffet's life, than Stravinsky, to me the parrot guy is more interesting.

I do not mean to offend LA degree holders this is just my opinion. To get a degree in accounting, or computer science you must take LA courses. If someone is anti-social these courses in college are not going to change that. I just disagree with the system. I have to accept it, but I disagree.

As I learned in my General Psch. course nobody is ever really wrong as long as they are talking.

Regards,

Scott

 

Once you cut through all the crap, that's pretty much what you're left with.

Here in the US, legitimate accreditation is the only assurance that a school meets a basic level of quality (to steal a phrase from Oregon).

To meet a standard level of quality (the degree never being questioned), you need RA.


Bruce

 

What defines an institution's graduation requirements is the least amount of work that is needed. This is a simple fallout from the definition of requirements. Where is the line drawn IN YOUR OPINION for the least units that meets the requirements for a Bachelor's degree?

120 credits is the standard
Is 60 credits enough?
Is 30 credits enough?
Is 15 credits of work enough?
What is the least ?

My opinion is that it is 120 credits. What is your opinion?

 

plcscott talks a lot of sense about the need for lots of experience when it comes to doing the job. I served a six year mechanical engineering apprenticeship (what seems like a couple of centuries ago) and for the bulk of this apprenticeship my mentor was a chap who had left school at 13 and who had no qualifications of any sort. But he was a genious. He knew everything there was to know about tool design, milling, turning, boring, drilling, welding, heattreatment of metals, mathematics, science, metallurgy, and mechanical engineering. His general knowledge was also outstanding.
He was also the most respected man in the Company.
He taught me most of what I knew about mechanical engineering prior to my emigrating to 'paradise' some forty years ago and the knowledge gained from him turned out to be of far more importance to me - and the companies I worked for - than my UK qualifications.

 

I haven't been keeping up with this discussion (and probably won't start now), but you folks might be interested in the sponsored result that shows up when you type "Monticello University" at www.google.com.


Cheers,

 

Plcscott - Technical skills certainly are important in hiring decisions - especially for entry level positions. Some engineering schools tend to focus more on "hands on" engineering while others are more theoretical. Some people certainly can learn on their own as well.

But what about a person's long term career potential? You want a person who can perform today. But what about tomorrow? Is the person educated so that they can grow their skills over time? Do they have sufficient "people" skills to work with others? Shouldn't this be part of your hiring decision? Your technician with no formal education may do a great job today - but does he/she have the kind of education that will allow him/her to learn new technology or function at a managerial level?

Given the condition of the market today - how about hiring folks who have an accredited degree AND who can perform in an entry level position?

Regards - Andy

 

Even more interesting, if you trim off the "kwu" from the sponsored link URL, you get.... University of Phoenix.

I wonder how long the regionally accredited programs that are being advertised by the particular marketing group (QuinStreet) will put up with being lumped in with the unwonderful Kennedy-Western?

Oh... and did anyone notice that K-W now prominently states that they don't accept students from California OR Oregon? Guess they'll be adding South Dakota to that list as well....

 

And when I hire someone, I put a *lot* more weight on the applicant's honesty and integrity than on either skills and experience or education.

When I get a resume with a less-than-wonderful or an outright fraud school on it, it immediately gets tossed into the "reject" pile, regardless of the experience, background, previous employment or what-have-you.

Reason? I wouldn't hire someone who would knowingly steal from me. And I wouldn't want someone that I couldn't trust, someone that would lie to me.

An employee that puts a bogus or less-than-wonderful school on his or her resume is (well, about 90+ % of the time, I'd guess) lying to me. Nearly all of these people *know* that their degree isn't up-to-snuff with a real one, yet they're certainly not volunteering that information to me.

As such, it's no different than if the employee directly lied to me... and worse, if I compensate employees in part based on education, then the employee is also stealing from me, because s/he is getting wages from me that s/he isn't entitled to.

So as far as I'm concerned, integrity goes out the window as soon as I see a K-W or Columbia State or Washington International or Trinity C&U or any of a bazillion other degrees mentioned in a resume.

That employee would be MUCH better off to not mention the bogus degree and simply list his/her experience and background. If there's a legit degree, that will definitely add points in their favor, but a fake degree is a guaranteed zero.

It's much like unaccredited schools and fake accreditors. One can sometimes argue that a given school is making a sincere attempt if they're not claiming any sort of accreditation (think Cal Coast.) But all credibility for a school goes immediately out the window if they claim a fraudulent accreditor (think Century.)

 

If you are lumping state approved schools with degree mills, then I disagree with your statement. If you are refusing to hire people with degree mill diplomas I have no problem with your words, but I believe that to put approved schools into this category, to be a mistake. They are legal and have some level of scrutiny. Degree mills have none, and have no verification. I may be reading more into your statement than was intended, if so I apologize in advance.

 

No James that is exactly what he intended.

I totally disagree with it though. I do not know what you do for a living, but because someone went to PWU, KW, Century, or others you throw them out because you think they will lie, cheat and steal. Sheeesh. That is rediculous. The classic RA or No Way argument over and over.

I consider the above degrees substandard to RA, but legimate non traditional schools.

As to the number of hours needed for a degree. I DO NOT KNOW! How many of you have ever said that??

120 may be a great number. If it is an Electrical degree fill some of those fluff courses in Literature with Hydraulics, and Pneumatics then I would be happy. When the guy comes to work for me, and we need to build something that will be one less skill I will have to train him on. He can go home at night, and write poetry until his heart is content.

hey whata ya say
hey whata ya say
RA is the only way
RA is the only waaay!!!

Wooo Yeepee!
Gooooo Regional!

 

Andy:

Good Post. I will add you to my list. I think I have about 8 people now that can post their differences with intelligence and class. Maybe things are getting better around here.

I personally think you get your people skills in places other than a class room. If you do not have confidence, then you do not have it. As far as learning a new technology later, that will come a lot smoother if they have more technology today. If they come up with some great new compound that is stronger and more forgiving than concrete then I would prefer to send someone to learn it that has some concrete, and chemistry education. Shakespeare is not going to do a darn thing to help that guy learn a new technology. As far as a moving someone into management is concerned my guys are taught this about managing people from me. Work with people if you can when they have problems. If a person abuses that let them know this: " Our Policy is here is the job, and here is the door you make your choice" it has worked well. We try to work as a team, and do what ever we can to make our customers happy. We are all in it together, but I am looking for a Cal Ripkin and not a Ken Griffey Jr.

Regards,

Scott

 

PLC

Once again you go off on a minitirade. No one has said RA or nothing. But if they did that would be a very defensable position. What are the top 99.9999% of universities in the US? RA of course. Most employers do not have time to shift through obscure non-accredited schools.

As to K-W, any business that misrepresents itself and moves from state to state to avoid oversight can certainly be called a degree mill.