Kennedy-Western lawsuit

No, I wasn't aware the substandard degree did it. ...bastards.

 

Re: Consistency

It is not. It is the state that determines whether or not a degree issued by a school is legal. Not the student and the school; the state. While the student and school may enter into a contractual arrangement, but the product (the degree, the school's consideration in the contract) is controlled by law. The school cannot just make up any old thing, call it a degree, and sell it. This is true with many other products, too. Using your logic, a car dealership could cobble together some parts, call it a BMW, and sell it. But the contractual arrangement between buyer and seller doesn't turn the heap of junk into a BMW, and the dealership isn't going to get away with it.

If you purchase a car in Virginia, then take it to Maryland to register it, Maryland will require you to pay the difference between the lower sales tax (Virginia's) and theirs. Even though the buyer bought the car legally and paid the required tax, Maryland will not recognize that arrangement; they want the extra dough.

States set all kinds of standards regarding the use of college degrees. Degrees from some schools are sufficient for licensure while others are not. Graduates of counseling programs at state-approved schools in California can sit for MFCC licensing in that state, but the other 49 states are not obligated to recognize the degree for their licensure. Oregon is applying the same process, just in a wider way.

I've never been a fan of the way Alan Contreras has handled his "list," but I've always been glad for his contribution to the effort. K-WU is taking what I believe to be a long shot because they have no other choice. Their bubble is about to burst. They've gotten too large to stay under the radar, and they're too fake to stand the scrutiny. Oregon is just one of the many battlegrounds on which they can expect to lose.

 

Oh, then you didn't hear about the fake physician in Las Vegas recently, treating patients with fake credentials that included a fake degree. I wonder how many of them he hurt, either directly through his actions or indirectly through his inactions.

Bear testifies once in awhile, rebutting expert witnesses with fake degrees. Those "experts" harmed quite a few people with their testimony based on expertise that didn't exist.

Fake credentials are a scourge in a society that relies on the integrity of those credentials to ensure expertise and professional quality. Anything to support that effort is good by me. Not perfect, not to be taken without scrutiny, not insulated from criticism. But still good.

 

A droll and glib answer, Kirkland, but it (not surprisingly) ignores yet another tragic example and the larger issues you yourself broached.

Do you think that society and the public are harmed in any way by academic fraud?

 

I think Oregon could have a problem because it labels schools without any investigation whatsoever.

Contreras's gut feeling, a dog eared copy of Bear's Guide and an occasional phone call from someone named Douglas is how schools are labelled.

Even if it has the right to classify schools, it must assume the obligation not to do so arbitrarily.

The other unreasonable thing is that a school would have to register and seek approval in 50 plus jurisdictions, should all states have similar laws.

 

In reading the complaint again and the referenced regulation, it appears the regulation is in effect after someone is warned first. Perhaps the intent is that Oregon reserves the right to follow up on certain egregious cases and proceed with a warning process prior to having the recalcitrant arrested. And if you aren't warned, then you have the right to carry on. Maybe Alan has taken this thing too far under bad advice.

 

Re: Consistency

Evidently you did not read what I said Mr. Douglas.... Read it again....

 

Interesting. You seem to have your mind made up despite any facts involved. You make a clear statement that isn't based on fact. Someone points out the missing fact and then you change your statement. I assume you are against anything except 100% voluntary accreditation. You have an interesting perspective.

 

Wrong, as always. I've never spoken to Alan Contreras. In fact, I've only corresponded with him twice, and both times were related. I sent him an e-mail regarding VIU (after someone else informed him that this unaccredited school was operating in Virginia). The other was when I returned the favor regarding Knightsbridge University, a diploma mill.

You should at least try to get your facts right. These events have been discussed and are available to you.

You, Dennis, have no qualifications in this field to judge Contreras, nor the ODA. You're unqualified. You don't have credentials, you don't have experience in DL, and you regularly demonstrate a lack of even the most rudimentary research skills. Finally, your disregard for the truth is most telling of all. All you have is a vested interest in one school (CCU) that you attend and the ODA calls substandard.

 

Re: Consistency

Well according to the U.S. Court system Oregon and all other states have exactly that right. Many would say they have that duty. You do realize that there have been school that met your description, and that were "legal", that were later closed down and prosecuted by the Federal government. These degrees went from "legal" to useless overnight. I much prefer government being proactive and preventing people from wasting thousands of their dollars and years of their time.

 

Gus, loaded question alert.... is anyone harmed by academic fraud... hmmmm... first one must define the term and second, one must demonstrate some logic in how that is relevant to the complaint which is based on 1st amendment rights and not something labeled as academic fraud. Once again and not surprisingly (it does sound snotty doesn't it) you have turned the discussion onto a path of your own choosing. I think citizens should stand by the US Constitution. Do you see any harm in undermining the Constitution and Bill of Rights to further a specific cause?

 

Re: Re: Consistency

No, it isn't "evident." Would you be more specific? And "Rich" will do nicely, thanks.

 

Mark Hacking's story may be similar to that of Jean-Claude Romand. See 'The Adversary' -- a career of lies and murders.

 

what? I think it's called conjecture. We're just having a conversation here Dave, although I do believe Oregon is wrong in its methods.

 

It is going to be very interesting to see how the courts resolve this one. The point was made that a degree represents some sort of contract and should therefore be accepted in all 50 states. While it does fit most of the points of a contract, (Offer, Aceptance, etc) it in fact is a Proof of Satisfaction in that it asserts that the person named on the face of it has satisfied the requirements of that entity to be awarded the certificate, diploma, degree, whatever. School A and school B both issue papers they call Doctorates. School A requires extensive coursework, much writing, original research, and a dissertation which then must be defended. School B on the other hand, is perfectly willing to issue a Doctorate to my bulldog in return for a few credit card numbers typed in to a website. In both cases, the requirements of the respective schools have been met. Are the Doctorates equal? Obviously not. However, calling one legal and the other may not be proper. This is probably at least part of the KWU case. They are obviously both proof that the named inividuals have met the requirements for that school, but the schools are not equal in academic value. Oregons case is surely that the degrees from certain schools are not academically acceptable in Oregon. That would seem to be well within Oregons dominion. The issue of criminal liability may be of some concern, but the case can be very easily made that offering a purchased degree as proof of competency in a certain field would constitute fraud. However, if the prospective employer does not need nor desire proof of competency, but rather just that the employee have a nice looking framed diploma to hang behind his desk. . .

 

For the purpose of the Kennedy-Western lawsuit, Kirkland, academic fraud is fairly easy to define. Claiming a degree in the State of Oregon that violates state statutes is tantamount to academic fraud. Therefore, it doesn’t take much logic to see how this relates directly to the complaint.

It was you, Kirkland, who stated that claiming a bogus degree “hurts no one.” And it was you (in your typically glib manner) who stated that the public only had the right to be protected in cases of “imminent bodily harm or the threat thereof” (the implication being that the public does not need to be protected from the claiming of substandard or fraudulent credentials). It’s interesting how you broach a subject only to quickly abandon it in favor of personal slurs when the discussion takes a turn that does not favor your aims.

Being that you (conveniently) overlooked my question (after having broached the subject yourself), Kirkland, I'll ask it again. Do you think that society and the public are harmed in any way by academic fraud?

I see no harm in interpreting the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights in such a manner as to protect the public good. Does making it illegal for people to yell “FIRE!” in a crowded theater (an example of what you call "furthering a specific cause”) undermine the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights? I think not.

 

I understand. I am merely pointing out that basing one's thoughts and conjecture on beliefs instead of logic or facts is problematic. I appreciate that you are part of this conversation, but am confused by your changing stance. In any event, take care and have a great week.

 

Hi:

I will mostly ask questions here. Not trying to comment too much.

1. Are schools automatically accredited as soon as they open their door?

2. If a school is legally formed in one state, does that mean its not legal in another state?

3. Is there any lglobal aw in the US that says a degree is only legitimate if its accredited by the US DOE?

4. If a school is accredited by the Ministry of Education in another country, would that school's degree be automatically accepted by all governments?

If I follow this forum, I get really confused about what exactly is what.

 

That's what I was referring to. I have never attempted to straighten him out.

 

welcome back

Welcome back, morleyl.

If I recall correctly, you had asked this question a number of times in your posts in 2003.

It would seem that the answer is "no."

An example is to be found in the revocation of teaching licenses in Georgia: see 11 educators will lose state licenses: They purchased degrees on Internet (D. Aileen Dodd, Atlanta Journal-Constitution, July 8, 2004):

As far as I know, this ruling has not been challenged.

G