I Knew a Serial Killer

You're not far off. It's a bit more complicated than what you've presented but you're right in that it involves trust, confusion around the meaning of sexual intimacy versus other kinds of intimacy, safety issues and a host of other complicating factors that may or may not be in play, depending on the circumstances of the specific case. Much has been written on this subject. If you ever want to give it a peak you can start your Google search using the term "repetition compulsion."
Jack

 

Although my comment is somewhat off-topic here, I once attended a continuing medical education seminar on the care of the sexual assault patient. A couple of the presenters, who were behavioral health experts, said that post-assult 'hypersexuality' is not uncommon in people who have been victims of sexual assault. The incidence of this can increase the younger the age of the victim at the time of the assault.

 

I had thought that the post subject "I knew one too" would have implied a connection but I can see that it was too subtle...

Cheers,
Mark

 

No it wasn't. In retrospect, my bad. Sorry.

Nice graciousness, though. You should teach diplomacy.

 

Not really... at least not when one observes what the topic -- or at least one of them -- has now become.

True. And I would say that both the age of the female assault victim, as well as precisely who the attacker was -- and, more importantly, the degree to which the victim relied on, and trusted blindly, said attacker for basic protection from they ways of the world -- can make all the difference in how the victim acts out.

Oh, Jack... you Freudian, you.

In lieu of getting into a big discussion about it (because, in part, I just don't have it in me... hence the reason my book is not done), I'd like to recommend to the reader this article. There are certainly many others, but this one pretty much covers all the core issues rather nicely -- from Jack's wish that the reader understand the problem to be the abuser's identification with her own abuser and how that can lead to causing harm to others in the process of repeating the offensive act; to one of the other ways that it can go, wherein the victim causes repeated harm to herself by means of her own revictimization... as in what happens with prostituted women.

At the very heart of my "trust" thesis, Jack, is, in part, what the above linked-to article describes under the heading, "Social Attachment and the Trauma Response," to wit:

• Human beings are strongly dependent on social support for a sense of safety, meaning, power, and control.14, 15, 93 Even our biologic maturation is strongly influenced by the nature of early attachment bonds.137 Traumatization occurs when both internal and external resources are inadequate to cope with external threat. Physical and emotional maturation, as well as innate variations in physiologic reactivity to perceived danger, play important roles in the capacity to deal with external threat.77 The presence of familiar caregivers also plays an important role in helping children modulate their physiologic arousal.146 In the absence of a caregiver, chidren experience extremes of under-and over arousal that are physiologically aversive and disorganizing.38 The availability of a caregiver who can be blindly trusted when their own resources are inadequate is very important in coping with threats. If the caregiver is rejecting and abusive, children are likely to become hyperaroused. When the persons who are supposed to be the sources of safety and nurturance become simultaneously the sources of danger against which protection is needed, children maneuver to re-establish some sense of safety. Instead of turning on their caregivers and thereby losing hope for protection, they blame themselves. They become fearfully and hungrily attached and anxiously obedient.24 Bowlby16 calls this "a pattern of behavior in which avoidance of them competes with his desire for proximity and care and in which angry behavior is apt to become prominent."
  
  Copyright © Bessel A. van der Kolk, MD
  
  
  REFERENCES:
  
  14. Bowlby J: Attachment and Loss. Vol 1: Attachment. New York, Basic Books, 1973
  
  15. Bowby J: Attachment and Loss. Vol 2: Separation. New York, Basic Books, 1973
  
  16. Bowby J: Violence in the family as a disorder of the attachment and caregiving systems. Am J Psychoanal 44:9-27, 1984
  
  24. Cicchetti D: The emergence of developmental psychopathology. Child Dev 55:1-7, 1984
  
  38. Finkelhor D, Brown A: The traumatic nature of child sexual abuse. Am J Orthopsychiatry 55:530-541, 1985
  
  77. Kagan J, Reznick S, Snidman N: The physiology and psychology of behavioral inhibition in children. Child Dev 58: 1459-1473, 1987
  
  93. Maclean PD: Brain evolution relating to family, play and the separation call. Arch Gen Psychiatry 42;505-517, 1985
  
  137. van der Kolk B: Psychological Trauma. Washington, DC, American Psychiatric Press, 1987
  
  146. Weiss JM, Glazer HI, Pohorecky LA, et al: Effects of chronic exposure to stressors on subsequent avoidance-escape behavior and on brain norpinephrine. Psychosom Med 37:522-524, 1975

The whole trust thing -- the unbelievable impact its loss by a completely dependent female child, usually as a consequence of parental sexual abuse -- has always been one of the hands-down most compelling, horrifying and truly heartbreaking aspects of it for me.

As part of the aforementioned maneuvering, a raft of complex coping mechanisms are learned -- refined to a science, even.

Boys tend to identify with the abuser and are, themselves, statistically more likely to victimize as adults -- making statistically anomalous the brilliant, olive-skinned, raven-haired beauty of little fauss's story, as well as Mary Kay Letourneau, and an ever-increasing number of others across the nation in which I notice the media has taken a keener interest of late.

Girls, on the other hand, tend to cling, even more strongly, to the abuser -- and here's where the complex coping mechanisms come in -- desperately maintaining the underlying protective relationship in manifold ways... usually to their peril. Most of them -- and I maintain they are the emotionally weaker ones, perhaps surprisingly -- live a life of picking men who abuse them and who, in many cases, end-up battered and dead. But a smaller -- and, interestingly, emotionally stronger -- group hone their coping skills into remarkably effective manipulations of their abusers, usually involving the use of sex and drugs as a way of getting what they want or, more accurately, need. As a consequence, more often than not, they end-up preserving their own lives far longer and more effectively than their emotionally weaker, bad-man-picking, battered, domestic counterparts. These women in the latter, emotionally stronger group are often the ones who become drug-addicted and, among a slightly smaller number of them, get turned-out as prostitutes; or who engage in more subtle forms of prostitution wherein they simply trade sex with their abusers for drugs, but don't actually hook to the public on the street.

And all because daddy couldn't control his urges; had no notion of boundaries; didn't understand the blind trust dynamic; probably was abused himself, and ultimately indulged himself with his own flesh-and-blood daughter of tender years.

Man... this is making me really furious... yet again. I need to stop.

It is worthy of note, Jack, that Freud, himself, had a great deal of trouble resolving the paradoxes of the repetition compulsion, and reconciling it with his whole "pleasure principle" thing. For most of his life, the "what" of the repetition did not so much vex him as his inability to truly explain the "why" of the compulsion to repeat. Given that it defined the neurotic's suffering, how could repetition compel more suffering than it dispelled? It was not until his 1920 essay, "Beyond the Pleasure Principle" that Freud came to grips with the likelihood that the death instinct probably operated alongside the repetition compulsion and often traversed it as a core motivator. But even then, Freud hedged his bet, admitting, "I am not convinced, myself" many times before the end of his life.

 

So is there? "Evil," I mean. In the world? True evil; an independent entity? Or is it just our free will making us reckless again? No sarcasm, intended. I'm just trying to steer us back to something in your thread-starting post and away from parental (or at least trusted-person) sexual abuse of female children.

Or are they really much the same subject?

 

Now, now Gregg, I didn't say that this was anything like a sole explanation of this phenomenon, I only said that the repetition compulsion was a good place to start. I've always believed that an historical perspective was of value. Similarly, I've always been interested in reading the works of an author in the order they were written. It allows me to think in terms of developing themes, etc. By the way, I was pleased to see amongst the cited references a piece of work by a former instructor of mine, Dante Cicchetti. He is one of those guys who decided that a PhD in Clinical Psychology wasn't quite getting it done for him so he went back to school and earned a second PhD, this one in Developmental Psychology. A smart guy, no doubt, but also a good teacher. As someone said before Gregg, not bad for an amateur.
Jack

 

I know... I was just screwin' around. I suppose I should have put the winking smiley thingy next to my "...you Freudian, you" line.

 

Different points on a continuum, perhaps.
Jack

 

I knew they would, or, the Mad Priest moonlights as the Crazed Prophet

Actually, given the ineluctable stupidity of this, it didn't take a prophet to foresee that on the crabby forum this humorous idiocy would surface.
(If I hadn't predicted it, I wouldn't post this hoolerei.)

<quote>

Reply to : Dennis Ruhl

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And don't forget that members of degreeinfo have a long association with mass murderers.massmurderers
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Wow! They are actually bragging about knowing killers and even worse! But, maybe these self admitted connections with killers and frauds, and con men have something to do with $$$$$$$. Tips from hoods and "deepthroat" types might make a great story. Easy too. Even Alan Contreras admits he does not bother to research anything.

<end quote>

 

Re: I knew they would, or, the Mad Priest moonlights as the Crazed Prophet

I think Dennis is studying too hard. He isn't able to comprehend anymore, evidently.

No one is bragging about knowing serial killers. The gist of most of the posts is twofold: First, that we never know with whom we really associate and second, the Providence of God.

 

Stop making sense, Jimmy. You know how it irritates some folks.

 

Some of the posters suggested that a psychologist address serial murder. While I ‘are one’ serial murder is far afield from my area of expertise so I think I’ll just share a personal decision I made in response to an experience with its aftermath.

One morning in the late 80s while reading the Sunday paper I recognized a picture in the TV guide that was linked to one of the missing persons genre of shows that became so popular. I said to my wife, “I know that man, his name is Paul Cosner; we knew each other when I was an undergrad in Ohio.”

I’m generally not much for these shows but I diligently awaited the broadcast and lo and behold it was he. Perhaps some of the readers are familiar with the case. Two maniacs in the Bay Area kidnapped then transported folk to a camp in Northern CA and in the case of women raped and murdered them. The men they ‘released’ and hunted down as prey. As things developed it was discovered these two responded to a newspaper ad Paul had placed to sell a car at which point he was taken captive. One of his captors, I believe his name was Leonard Lake, who was apprehended driving Paul’s car suicided in jail. The other whose surname is Ing escaped to Canada and years went by before he was extradited. If I recall the specifics the Canadians were reluctant to extradite knowing he faced the death penalty although he was eventually tried and convicted of multiple murders in California.

I don’t mean to misrepresent myself and suggest Paul and I were close. It would be more accurate to say I knew him socially through my friendship network at the time. Nevertheless, one thing I took away from this sad event is the value of maintaining friendships. There isn’t much I can do about serial murder per se; however, I instituted a personal policy where I seek out and contact either one or two old friends each year during the holiday season. I have yet to receive anything but a resounding appreciation of my effort. And it’s terrific to find out what became of old so and so. Some years it’s been a real challenge although the advent of the ‘net has made the task just immeasurably less difficult.

Perhaps some of the readers might wish to use my experience as a rationale to reach out to dormant friendships. I think Paul would like that.

 

Re: Re: I knew they would, or, the Mad Priest moonlights as the Crazed Prophet

My guess is that Dennis is just trying to yank a few chains. He enjoys getting a rise out of people now and then. The other people there are more scary. They seem to believe the illogical irrational things they say. I guess that makes sense when you think unaccredited schools and/or degree mills are just as worthwhile as accredited degrees.

 

Re: I knew they would, or, the Mad Priest moonlights as the Crazed Prophet

They keep forgetting about the prostitutes. Dammit! I keep reminding them and reminding them! Man... what's it gonna' take?



Look... janko, old friend: Don't sweat it. They're idiots... sh_t-disturbers... low-lifes. Most of them even know it. We most certainly do. Thoughtful readers will, too... they can easily see who's who and what's what; and those who can't are probably folks better left not worried too much about in any case.

You're letting it get to you. Don't. They're just not worth it. There's a reason they've all been booted outta' here. No one in the real, physical world gives them so much as a moment's notice. Can't you see that that's their whole problem? They're the invisible ones... completely impotent in every relevant way outside of those fora -- and barely, inside, I would argue. There's not a one of them -- not a single one -- who would do anything short of drop to the ground and beg for their very lives if they should ever happen to accidentally run into any of us -- or... well... at least me, anyway -- in the real, physical world... in a way wherein we were aware of who they really were, that is.

What was that movie with Guvna' Arnold and Jamie Lee Curtis and Tom Arnold and... I can't even remember who else... where Guvna' Arnold played a real secret agent but she (Curtis) thought he was just a salesman? Remember? Doris and Boris and all that kinda' stuff? Remember the car salesman guy who just pretended to be a secret agent so he could pick-up chicks; and how he wet himself and cowered like a coward once he was discovered for who and what he really was? Even he knew he was mere naval lint... and said as much. Believe me... deep down inside, Dennis, et al, know that truth about themselves, as well.

Not really. They're children -- literally, in some cases; and mentally in the others. They're about as dangerous, in the real world, as a small, steaming pile of cat poop. They're not really even dangerous in the web world, either; nor are they as likely to mislead those seeking educational information as many here sometimes worry.

Exactly.

But, you know... commenting on it or responding to it here is a huge mistake. The same advice your mother gave you in grade school regarding how to deal with schoolyard bullies and teasers applies here. Nothing silences like silence. Ignore them.

The worst thing you can do is worry about whether the world's knuckleheads will smear your reputation. Whenever you try to undo such things by protestation and/or trying to set the record straight, don't forget that your enemies will never believe you anyway; and your friends don't give a damn.

So just ignore 'em. Trust me... your blood pressure will go down, you'll sleep better, and you'll live longer.

Funny that you point them out, though, janko... so soon after I asked if there really is "evil" in the universe.

Agreed. Nice sentiments... and sharing. Thanks, David.

 

I thought it was so stupid it was funny, but then whatsisname and John Dovelos are a great comedy team.

 

Killers and such

Hi.

I'm new here.

I've always been interested in killers. I don't know that I've met any, but I did have an interesting experience when I was in Reno a few years ago.

My hubby and I were walking between casinos through the inside walkway and a bunch of teenagers went by.

One of them caused me to stop, shudder and move quickly away from the area. I took a quick look at him and had the unshakable feeling that if ever someone were a serial killer or something else evil, it was this guy.

I was hesitant to even look at him for fear of catching his eye. He wasn't someone I wanted to be remembered by.

Not as dramatic as the other examples, but it was creepy.

--Amy

 

I "met" Juan Corona - the infamous Yuba City scum who murdered 10 (or more) migrant farm workers and buried them underneath of his house. The was quite the arrogant a** at the old "Rita". He used to whine and cry about the conditions of the old Greystone maximum security unit - of course no one else shed a tear for the b--tard. (he was eventually stabbed in the eye at Folsom Prison - definitely had it coming)

This is a small world though - about 15 years later I was working at a semiconductor company with a guy with the same last name who was raised in Yuba City. When I joked about Juan, he said the guy was his Uncle - whoa!

 

What's Rita?