DL Law Degree .... Pragmatic uses??

nosborne, in another thread you said the Northwestern Cal Law was your "personal favorite" California DL law program. Can I ask you why you think so?

thanks, J- Lew

 

Northwestern Cal Law School

Hi J-Lew,

It's because Northwestern Cal Law School is the cheapest among all the CA DL law schools. In addition, it has a good track record of Baby Bar passing rates.

 

The English LL.B. is the academic stage only. Practical training and clerkships amounting to 2-3 more years is necessary to practice.

The American J.D. qualifies the graduate to take the Bar immediately upon graduation. It includes practice training that the LL.B. does not.

I like NWCalU because:
-Its graduates routinely pass the California Bar and become lawyers;
-it is CHEAP at about $8,000 total tuition. Some D/L schools whose degrees are little if at all more useful than the NWCal J.D. get that much per year for four years!
-When I contacted them (once) about their post J.D. programs, I got a prompt, accurate reply and NO SALESMANSHIP.

 

Excellent answers nosborne!! I'd really like to thank all respondents to this thread very much for all your help in clarifying exactly what the differences are between the US DL JD programs in California, and the University of London LL.B. Given what has been said by everyone, who have incidentally, been quite generous with their time and information, I think that the JD program from Northwestern Cal law school will best serve my interests and career goals.

This site is an indispensable resource. Keep up the great work.

Thanks again, J-Lew

 

ABA credit for non-ABA work

A fellow classmate of mine just graduated from my college, Oak Brook College of Law, which is pretty well respected here; it is a California DL program. From what I understand, Rutgers-Camden (Rutgers School of Law-Camden), an ABA accredited law school, granted him 41 credits from his California law school work; they require a total of 84 to graduate. Of course, he is a California law school graduate and has passed the California Bar, which is one of the most difficult Bar exams. So he proved in a way that he had knowledge of law roundaboutly. But the point is, he got half credit from an ABA law school for non-ABA work. Might be something to look into...

Steven
____________________
Life's a banquet-
And most poor suckers
Are starving to death.

 

Although I don't have the specifics in front of me at the moment, I have also learned from my previous research that SOME ABA JD programs have also granted advanced standing to University of London LLB graduates. This is certainly not the norm, but has happened often enough to have it at least be a possibility for people in this situation. Being admitted to a state bar would probably also be very pursuasive in getting a ABA law school to grant this.

I believe that TECHNICALLY it might put a school's ABA accreditation at risk, but we all know that rules are often bent (and occationally outright broken), with few consequences.

This is a route that one should certainly not count on happening, but depending on individual circumstances, might be a lot better than a remote possibility.

I am considering this approach for myself, as I am a University of London LLB student.

 

Careful, here. Make sure you know WHO is giving credit for WHAT.

When an ABA school gives advanced standing to a London LL.B. holder, they probably distinguish between the EXTERNAL LL.B. and an INTERNAL LL.B., whatever the diploma may say.

It is also ONE thing to give advanced standing to an applicant who is a member of the bar in some state or country; my own school did something very similar for a Canadian lawyer I know. It is quite ANOTHER thing to give advanced standing on the basis of the degree alone.

State Bar authorities can be picky, too. A solicitor in England with an internal LL.B. from the University of London is generally permitted to take the New York Bar exam. However, if the solicitor got his degree through the London external programme, he is NOT qualified.

 

This is all very true. Through my research, I have focused exclusively on external graduates (not admitted in any jurisdiction), however.

I believe that in the case of internal graduates, granting advanced standing would probably be more normal, and I would be more surprised than not to see an ABA school deny giving at least a minimal amount of credits.

 

After doing an extensive internet search of the current job market for legal professionals in the US, both inside and outside of California, as well as Canada, it seems pretty evident to me that a non-ABA accredited degree won't get you hired by just about any firms or corporations, if at all. "Impeccable academic credentials from a top-tier ABA accredited school" is how the usual qualifications line goes. While many employers may be flexible on the "top-tier" part, I'm not so sure about the ABA accredation part.

This casts a different sort of light on the various DL JD programs on offer from California. One could always enter into solo practice there I suppose but obviously, you can't really conclude anything beyond the fact that there's not much of a market out there for non-ABA JD's, whether you manage to pass the Cal Bar or not. It seems to me that the Cal. DL JD is most valuable as a "career enhancer," if you need to say, shore up your professional credentials with a JD but not rely on it exclusively for employment in the legal profession.

Given this, I've been forced to reconsider the UoL LL.B. as the only truly "legitimate" option for opening you to a variety of actual legal employment options, including leading directly to the practice of law whether as a solicitor, barrister, or as in-house counsel. It would seem that unlike other market sectors, in law, it matters where you get your degree. I'm an EU citizen, so it wouldn't be a problem to enter into vocational training in the UK and eventually, practice. I don't want to be limited in the sense of having to live in the UK forever though.

My question is, once a lawyer is fully certified in the UK, can he/she practice elsewhere in the EU? It seems that with the EU expanding as rapidly as it is, there must be quite an excellent job market all across the EU for UK trained lawyers who specialize in EU law. As for moving to other jurisdictions, there's always a way to enter as "foreign qualified counsel" in Canada and the US, and if you want to stay there permanently, there are also vocational and/or professional steps one can take. At least with an LL.B. from UoL, you won't be stuck with the apparent stigma of having a non-ABA degree, effectively cutting you off from most available jobs in N. America. I recently contacted the Law Society of St. Vincent & Grenadines and they simply require a UK LL.B. and then a year at Wooding College. Bermuda requires some practice experience in the UK first. With a UoL LL.B. it appears that you can be both employable and mobile. Provided you're willing to slog it out through another year or in some cases (ie, UK) 2-3 years of post-professional training. Oh well, C'est la vie as the French say.

This is what I've concluded up to now re: DL law degrees and their practical (ie, employment) applications. Am I on the right track here with the UoLX degree? Have I overlooked anything crucial or otherwise important that should be considered before taking the plunge into DL law school?

Any insights or information would be much appreciated.

Thanks, J-Lew

 

Sorry, I forgot to paste in this important point re: qualifying for the legal profession in the UK:

"Students who plan to complete their degree studies by distance learning should; be aware that it is the policy of the Law Society and the General Council of the Bar that distance learning courses are normally deemed to be part-time courses. Students who are following such courses should therefore arrange for the duration of their studies to be not less than four years or more than six years. In particular, students preparing for the LLB degree of the University of London as external students by any other method than full-time attendance at a college, are expected to complete their studies and be examined under Scheme B as outlined in the University of London's Regulations for the LLB Degree for External Students."

 

It all depends

Well, J-Lew, it really all depends on where you want to practice. You are right that the Cal DL JD is of practically little use for you. It appears you are looking at almost a global scale of practice. If you want to focus your practice in Canada, get a Canadian LLB. If the EU, go to UoL. However, your statement about the Cal DL JD not being at all useful is not completely accurate. It might not get you placed right into the plush, exotic, high-level firms, but one should not have a difficult time getting a job at all IN Cal with one of those degrees. Also, you can move out-of-state and practice as corporate counsel or practice before most FEDERAL courts with a Cal JD.

Regarding moving around the EU, I believe that several years ago, there was some kind of EU legislation that allows temporary practice in other jurisdictions within the EU than what you are admitted to practice in, provided you do not start a permanent practice in that foreign jurisdiction. However, others of this forum would be far more qualified than I to fully answer this point.

Just make sure you know what you are doing! I started out this whole trip with very little knowledge. I must congratulate the moderators of this forum for the excellent job they are doing. I have learned so much here regarding this point that made my decision to forego the UoL LLB in favor of a Cal JD. This whole website is chalk-full of information. Do a search for LLB, and you will get a whole string of threads. Browse through them and you will know more than you ever thought existed!

Steven

 

Thanks Steven, you're right. there's a ton of useful info on this site for sure. You're also quite correct in assuming that I want to remain as mobile as I can in the law profession. I'm currently teaching ESL in Taiwan and what attracts me most to this line of work is the international mobility. It's something I don't want to lose even after I switch to law. Therefore, I'd like to pursue a law degree and specialize in branches of law from an institution that won't limit my mobility from the outset. I guess international law is the way to go in this respect. But where to study?

I really like the professional emphasis of the Cal JD. How it theoretically prepares you for the Cal Bar, which is an excellent credential and which then qualifies you for practice. Given that I already hold 2 BA's I certainly don't want to study for 4 years for a third one either! Only to have to undergo more training later. But I also definitely don't want to be limited to a single jurisdiction and would like to practice in a more global context.

Sure a non-ABA DL won't get you into those "plush exotic" firms as you said, but that's ok insofar as I think I'd prefer an in-house position related to some aspect of legal specialization (ie, international corporate or environmental law). And you raise a good point about being able to practice before federal courts and in house with a Cal DL JD. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that hardly anybody wants a non-ABA grad, at least according to the legal employment sites I've been researching. This has given me pause given that pursuing a DL JD is difficult enough as you don't make the kind of contacts and networks you'd need later simply by not being part of an actual living breathing classroom full of peers undergoing the same trials and tribulations as yourself. From what I've been seeing, it sounds like its almost impossible to get your "foot in the door" so to speak. But I may be wrong about that.

As to knowing what I'm doing........well, infortunately, I really don't have the answer yet. I know that I want to remain mobile on a global scale, I know what kinds of law interest me, and I know that I'd like to be employable in the kind of positions that would allow me to practice the legal specializations I'm interested in. From what I've seen, the best position for these requirements would be in-house counsel in a specialized field. As to what DL law degree would best serve this end.....I don't know. I'd prefer to study for the JD, but to be honest, I'm also a little mistrustful of the practicality of the Cal JD degrees, although perhaps wrongly. UoL has the academic credentials, but I'm not happy about it being an undergraduate degree and wonder if the JD offers a higher more in depth and employable level of training. Obviously these are things you can't really know before you start. So, on to those other threads.....

Where in California are you (did you) study law? How do you (did you) like the program?

 

As has been pointed out (and you already realize) you need to figure out what you want to do with the degree before you start out.

If you want to practice in Canada, you best bet without a doubt is to get a Canadian LLB. Failing that it will be long road to actually becoming a Canadian lawyer regardless of which path you follow.

If you look at the UoL LLB, it will take you 3 years, all by DL. Then you have to take 1 year LPC, then two years vocational training, so in 6 years (theoretically) you are a shiny new solicitor anywhere in England or Wales. Bearing in mind that out of those 6 years 2 are actually working. Then you are a qualified lawyer with a Royal Charter LLB (and as you know a LLB is an undergraduate degree, but if you are coming back to Canada is widely considered the equivalent of a graduate degree, so it's not like you're picking up a BA). You can save a year off that by doing a CPE, or the UoL LLB in 2 years.

If you look at the California JD the math is pretty simple. 4 years and you're a lawyer.

It seems to me that specifically coming to Canada with a degree and a new ticket to practice law the LLB will have a bit more portability than a non ABA DL JD (my opinion only).

Now, if you don't want to practice law what you may want to consider is that the UoL LLB is ony 3 years and probably cheaper than the JD, plus you could follow it up with a LLM, total time commitment 4-5 years. Or Northumbria University offers a couple LLM programs that do not strictly require a law degree for admission.

 

Yeah ND, I think you're right.....the thing is, to know what you want to do before you go.

As for practicing:

Canada's not really on my things to do list. I feel as though I've already been there done that you know?

California would be great imo. It's actually the place I'd like to be if I were to live in N. America again. Mostly due to climate and economic opportunity.

I could live in the UK for a while, but not forever. I'd prefer to branch out into EU law so as to be mobile and live on the Mediterranean somewhere.

The LL.B. is also good for practicing in old British colonies scattered aroung the Caribbean and Belize, Trinidad, etc..

The question is......how good is the non-ABA JD outside of the following:

1) California solo practice
2) California practice at a small firm
3) Federal Court practice

probably not much right? So then these are general pragmatic options available for practice after the California DL JD I assume.

Right, so if you don't want to practice per se, than that opens up a whole new situation for you. In the US a JD would probably work best, outside of the US, I'd say an LL.B. would probably be better. Actually, the Cal JD at NWCU is cheaper than UoL once you factor in the cost of tutorial college on top of their minimal exam fees etc. It's hard to say which one would serve you better if you wanted to be a work as in house counsel. It would depend on whether most in house positions want a fresh graduate with little to no contacts due to DL training and who hasn't practiced. That, I don't know.

I'll check on those Northumbria options. Thanks for the info.

 

Choices, choices!!!

What I am doing might be an option for you. I have yet to start my first year of law school study. I enrolled in Oak Brook's one-year paralegal program for two reasons
1.) the CLA (www.nala.org) is nationally recognized, so I can work as a certified paralegal anywhere in the US after passing
2.) as a general overview of law to get an idea what I am getting myself into.
The paralegal is very intensive, covering 16 subjects in one year. NWCal also has a paralegal program, but I have not heard anything about it. Personally, I love the law. I have wanted to do this ever since 5th grade. And this lust has never changed.

I have been accepted into Oak Brook's JD program starting this August; which I am greatly looking forward too. One of the reasons I chose this is that I already live in California. Therefore, the LLB wouldn't be of the greatest utility to me. However, I am considering doing both the JD and LLB at the same time as you can structure the LLB to cover eight years. Still having my second thoughts about that much courseload though. And I don't want to go into the JD exams and start analyzing them via UK standards ;0

You raise a valid point about the employment market for Cal JDs. I don't know about many schools, but Oak Brook graduates do not lack for places to work. As Christians, most of us would like to work in public-interest, constitutional law. We are gaining a large presence in many of the conservative organizations and have ample employment opportunities. I do not know about other schools, but it would seem to me that many employers in the case of the Cal JD would look at the curriculum, your scores, and your bar pass rate. The bar says a lot; it does cover 14 subject (or something like that) and it is said that the California bar is one of the most difficult professional exams in the world.

Which above paragraph leads me to yet another consideration. You might not get hired on as an associate per se in any of the firms you would like to go visit, but the only difference between graduates of ABA and non-ABA accredited schools is the giving advice to clients and appearing before state courts. Yet you would like to work in-house for public law firms. In firms like these, there is much legal work you could do that would involve neither the giving of advice or arguing in state court. You could also work as a law clerk/paralegal for individual lawyers or private firms.

I am sure that lawyers/law firms here in America would look more favorably upon a JD degree with bar passage behind it than an LLB from a foreign university. Figure out where your primary focus of practice will be and obtain the degree that is best utilized in that jurisdiction.

Choices, choices!!!

Steven

 

Working in non-common-law jurisdictions

Unfortunately, I am not sure if this could work for you in the Mediterranean : though EU Law would help you, most continental systems are different than the common law British one. In fact, I think that the only country where there's common law around there is Israel, but over there they don't recognise DL law degrees, and therefore you will have to practice two years before being addmitted to their BAR.

If you're looking for warm common law places, what about Australia? I understood that the Australians acknowledge the UoL DL LLB fully.

 

DL Law schools

One other possibility to look into is getting a French ( from France) law school degree DL.
It is possible and it is FULLY accepted by Universities and the French Bar in France.
Of course, it implies that you read French easily.
The 3-year "Licence" degree is given by a French state outfit known as C.N.E.D. Do a search on MSN France Website using CNED and you will get the site of this French Distance Education organization .
After that, you would have to do the French bar over two years I think in France full-time, given that you are a EU legal resident.

 

Re: Choices, choices!!!

Be careful, here... this is potentially very serious stuff you're talking about, and you're giving out misinformation. What kind of law school you graduate from has nothing whatsoever to do with whether you can give advice to clients or appear in a state court.

Bottom line: In California, if you don't have a Bar card in your wallet, you don't get to advise ANYONE about ANYTHING. Period.

Nor do you get to appear in a state court as counsel on anyone's behalf.

Your one and only ticket to do either of those things is a Bar card. End of discussion.

If you're not a member of the California Bar (and click here to find out how to do that), then you'd better not be advising anyone of anything, or appearing in any courts on anyone's behalf, or you'll be charged with the Unauthorized Practice of Law... and a prior conviction on that particular charge is "number one" on the Committee of Bar Examinors' list of reasons to deny one a Bar card.

If you look-up California's Unauthorized Practice of Law statute, and if you also consult the Supreme Court's rules, you'll find that strictly technically speaking, even the advice I've given here could qualify as the unauthorized practice of law. California permits NO ONE to give ANY KIND of legal advice, nor to appear as representative counsel in any state court unless they're a full-blown, bona fide, card-carrying, passed-the-Bar-and-met-all-other-requirements LAWYER.

Whether you got your JD from an ABA-accredited law school hasn't one single thing to do with it. Not one! Once you've got the Bar card, no matter where you graduated from, you can advise to your heart's content and also appear in any court in the state. A Bar card is a Bar card. It's the great equalizer. Once you've got it, it's exactly the same as the Bar card the men and women who graduated from ABA-accredited schools have in their wallets. And no judge makes his or her decision on a matter before the Court based on whether moving counsel graduated from an ABA-accredited school. The Bar card is the ticket to admission. If you have one, you practice law. Practice law without one -- no matter where you graduated from -- at your peril.

 

*Doctor J: The poster formerly known as J-Lew*

(Sorry about the new handle, I couldn't post under the old one).

Somebody else pointed out an excellent point that although it's possible to transfer into a Cal DL JD program after you submit your London LL.B. info to the Cal State Bar for assessment, it'll still be really difficult to pass the Cal bar since your law education will primarily be English. You'd have to do a lot of extra studying!

From what I've seen from my research on the net, many many firms want to employ junior associates with a prestigious academic background. A U of London degree might shore up one's "prestige factor" as well as opening up possibilities for being a common law specialist at a US or other "foreign" firm. In any case, with a U of L LL.B., you can always transfer in to another jurisdiction later if you don't want to work and live in the UK. You're just looking at more law school if you go that way.

Also it could leave many employment doors open for at least the duration of your study time, for those, (like me), who haven't exactly finalized where you want to live, and what exactly you want to practice. It would be logical to think that a graduate with a law degree would be in a better position to say, "I want to practice constitutional law in a federal court," or, "I want to practice criminal law in a Caribbean country," than would someone like myself who hasn't even taken a class yet. I don't feel that I'm in a position to make an informed decision on that right now.

The bottom line is that I'm seeing that there's a lot of legal work open to law degree holders who don't necessarily want to practice in court. This is heartening. If one wanted to work somewhere in the US, having an LL.B. from the UK would, at worst, require some extra study in the US at diminished cost from a trad. 3 year JD. And that's good for the wallet.

Good luck at Oak Brook Steven!

Floyd, what you say stands to reason. Continental countries practice their own codes of law. Not UK common law. And good point about Australia. I hadn't thought of that.

VNaizaire, I'd love to live and work in France. It'd give me a chance to see a lot of family that I haven't really been in close contact with lately. And live in the south of France. Nice!Unfortunately, although my conversational French is fluent, I'm really hesitant to study law there. Legal language is not everyday language and I have enough trouble with legal english as it is!! Still, that's an excellent idea, and a useful post. Thanks for that info. I'll check it out.

Gregg, that's the beauty of the Cal DL schools. Once you get that bar card, you're theoretically as qualified as anyone else to practice law, work for a firm, counsel in-house, or what have you, in California or in Federal court. I'm seriously torn. Following the LL.B. from London gives the student a little breathing room, some time to consider his or her work and living options, while being able to make an informed decision upon graduation. However, no matter how you look at it, you're going to be in for more law school.

A DL Cal JD primes you for the Cal Bar, pure and simple. Pass the test and start working. Sounds great. If I knew for sure that your employability wouldn't suffer by having a non-ABA degree, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, from what I've seen that's not the case. But maybe I'm mistaken.

Thanks for all the useful advice, this site is priceless.

J-Lew

 

I was interested to read in this thread that Oakbrook graduates seem to find work easily in their chosen niche (Christian public interest advocacy).

It seems to me that a Calbar correspondence JD may become the PREFERRED route for persons interested in public interest work because only D/L grads will be financially able to accept low salaries.

Interesting note: The California state bar does not care whether an applicant is a U.S. citizen or resident or has the lawful right to work in the U.S. They are concerned only with good moral charactor, educational requirements, and Bar passage. Well, and their fees, of course!

Bar admission is really the most imprtant thing. WHERE one obtains one's legal education is secondary; it matters mostly if one wants an associate position in a major (high paying) firm or to work for the federal government. If the combination of a D/L JD and years of practice experience in California meet the requirements of the target state, the D/L nature of one's JD will not, I think, matter all that much. On the other hand, if the target state won't let one take the Bar, that's that!